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Bhop on Deathrun 2: Hop Again

Should Bhop be given a trial run on Deathrun?  

11 members have voted

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  1. 1. Give Bhop a chance?

    • Yes
      8
    • No
      3


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Earlier on the DR server, I brought up the subject of adding Bhop to our Deathrun server, like I did a months ago in this thread here: This thread here

First, let's go over the Bhop Plugin in question, which is this plugin here: Fysics Control

The plugin allows quite a bit of customizing, including a max speed cap. For more info, a Scout's normal speed is 400. Our Deathrun plugin also allows the Death's base walk speed to be altered (current I believe is 400).

 

Secondly, I'd like to go over why I think adding Bhop would be a good idea: 

  1. It adds another aspect to the gameplay other than "Run in/run out". 
  2.  It makes what would normally be impassable traps passable, traps that are originally unfair.
  3.  It would also give the Runners a bit of a confidence boost, since they have more of a chance of bypassing a trap. This would speed up rounds quite a bit instead of Runners standing at a trap they're too scared to try and beat for 20 minutes.

 

Finally, I'd like address issues that may cause people to feel strongly against Bhop being added:

  1. "Adding Bhop makes the Runners way too fast!". Simply add a speed cap either at, or slightly lower than Death's base speed.
  2. "Death's reaction time isn't good enough!". Most traps are instant, with a fairly large area of effect. Plus a lot of maps have choke points, curves, or uneven terrain which makes having a consistent hop a lot harder.
  3. "Bhoppers will jump the entire map in a single bound/will be moving at mach 5!". In order to keep up speed, you have to keep a consistent hop. The settings in the plugin can make it more or less forgiving on the timing as well as how much of a strafe is needed to even gain speed. Also, speed caps.  

 

I feel adding Bhop could help make our server more original when compared to other servers, and could help keep it populated/popular among players. We could also have a trial run for a short period of time to test it. If it's not fitting to the server, so be it, we simply remove it and move on. I'm not saying we absolutely need to add or lest our servers die a horrible and slow death, but it should at least considered.

As always, post any of your concerns or how you'd feel about Bhop being added, whether you're for or against the idea.

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2 minutes ago, Bone said:

 

"Death's reaction time isn't good enough!". Most traps are instant, with a fairly large area of effect. Plus a lot of maps have choke points, curves, or uneven terrain which makes having a consistent hop a lot harder.

It doesn't matter how fast the trap itself is if you aren't able to hit it before someone passes through. It's not just a matter of what the death's reaction time is, it's that this forces the death to be faster when suddenly traps that give the death a few seconds of a window to activate are now cut down to less then half a second. Bhopping wouldn't have any effect on people getting through the entire map as already pointed out about the map layout and such, but it has a major effect on traps themselves when you're able to just build up a jump right outside the trap then snap through it when you've gotten enough speed. Frankly that might end up slowing things down in the end by having people trying over and over to build up a hop at every single trap.

Overall though bhop directly benefits runners by allowing them to get past traps easier and does the opposite for the death by forcing them to be able to react faster without any plausible assistance for such. Some might argue it's too easy as death right now and this could make things more interesting and "skill based", but beyond that I don't see any benefit to it.

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Posted (edited)

As a former DM Of a GMOD Deathrun/Jailbreak community, I definitely think that bhop is a super-fun skill based mechanic that makes deathrun a lot more captivating and interesting instead of a slow and somewhat sluggish gamemode. 

As much as people say it will ruin the game and make the runners severely overpowered and be able to skip traps, I will definitely disagree with this as I have a lot of experience in the gamemode and it is actually a lot harder since we will likely use manual bhop, comparative to GMOD that uses autobhop (though I am not certain whether the suggested bhop mod is auto or manual), and then even then groups of people skipping traps rarely ever even happens at all. 

It is 100% worth a shot and does not break the game. Garry's Mod deathrun is very similar to TF2 deathrun and is evident of this! I would not mind giving it a trial first before we put the plugin on the server/don't put the plugin on to see what the community thinks with the plugin in action instead of just hypothetically! ^^

+1

Edited by Kypari (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, Elcark said:

It doesn't matter how fast the trap itself is if you aren't able to hit it before someone passes through. It's not just a matter of what the death's reaction time is, it's that this forces the death to be faster when suddenly traps that give the death a few seconds of a window to activate are now cut down to less then half a second. Bhopping wouldn't have any effect on people getting through the entire map as already pointed out about the map layout and such, but it has a major effect on traps themselves when you're able to just build up a jump right outside the trap then snap through it when you've gotten enough speed. Frankly that might end up slowing things down in the end by having people trying over and over to build up a hop at every single trap.

Overall though bhop directly benefits runners by allowing them to get past traps easier and does the opposite for the death by forcing them to be able to react faster without any plausible assistance for such. Some might argue it's too easy as death right now and this could make things more interesting and "skill based", but beyond that I don't see any benefit to it.

The speed players would be able to reach isn't comparable to that of Surf's, for example. I honestly don't see people being able to zoom so quick through traps that Death isn't able to see them. Hell, with the gamemode as slow as it is now, people can still rush Death if they aren't paying attention, but you would blame the Runner's "damn fast power walking" on that or the Death?

Plus the majority of maps have boosters or other ways of getting Death to traps before Runners can, and boosting the Death's base speed would also remedy that pretty quickly.

Players trying to build up a hop at a trap doesn't seem like a con to me. If anything it's equal to what we get now, people jumping in and out of range of a trap until Death caves and uses it. Plus Bhop wouldn't help on every trap. dr_horrors is a good example. Low ceilings, slim hallways, and even traps you have to crouch through, and dr_horrors is played a lot.

2 hours ago, Kypari said:

I will definitely disagree with this as I have a lot of experience in the gamemode and it is actually a lot harder since we will likely use manual bhop, comparative to GMOD that uses autobhop (though I am not certain whether the suggested bhop mod is auto or manual)

The plugin is both, actually. The ability to autohop is enabled/disabled serverwide through a CVAR

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4 minutes ago, Elcark said:

Bhopping wouldn't have any effect on people getting through the entire map as already pointed out about the map layout and such, but it has a major effect on traps themselves when you're able to just build up a jump right outside the trap then snap through it when you've gotten enough speed.

The thing is that you really can't do this on most of our maps as they consist of something that will have to stop them from running too far like on horrors and doors, also you can't really just sit there and spin around and expect to jump through a trap instantly as a lot of time you might not have enough space and it's easy to mess up in someway. Plus even if you do get enough speed there are still a lot of traps that can easily stop this or that this would basically be useless. The only times this would be really good to be honest is for like hard traps that don't really make sense like on dr_block or safety_first where the trap takes up the entire hallway which is basically almost impossible to get through without sacrificing someone, which this itself causes the game to slow down so much that most times they die to the motivator as they can't get by all the long traps fast enough. So this would be great for those kind of traps and would speed up the game, plus even then it still is pretty easy to catch people on these and it's not like they are going 200 miles per hour as we are just planning on keeping them at like scout speed at max. I'd say this definitely would be a fun attribution to add to the server for speeding it up a bit and making it a bit more fun for the players.

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19 minutes ago, Bone said:

Plus the majority of maps have boosters or other ways of getting Death to traps before Runners can, and boosting the Death's base speed would also remedy that pretty quickly.

Yes but this doesn't help with the deaths ability to react at the traps themselves, only get to them, which the death wouldn't need assistance with in most cases anyways as already stated the runners can't just zoom ahead in the map most the time with this only having effect at the traps. So the deaths ability to get to a trap is redundant when what is being changed is behavior at the trap itself. 

24 minutes ago, Bone said:

 

Players trying to build up a hop at a trap doesn't seem like a con to me. If anything it's equal to what we get now, people jumping in and out of range of a trap until Death caves and uses it.

My point about that is it negates any promise of this benefiting by making things faster when instead of people trying to trick the death as they are now they just stop in place to try and build up speed in a circle. 

19 minutes ago, Krampus said:

The thing is that you really can't do this on most of our maps as they consist of something that will have to stop them from running too far like on horrors and doors, also you can't really just sit there and spin around and expect to jump through a trap instantly as a lot of time you might not have enough space and it's easy to mess up in someway.

 

 The only times this would be really good to be honest is for like hard traps that don't really make sense like on dr_block or safety_first where the trap takes up the entire hallway which is basically almost impossible to get through without sacrificing someone

 

These open traps are the only point at which this becomes relevant, so this is somewhat contradictory. At these traps which make up a majority of traps in general you WILL have enough space to build yourself up to max speed before flicking across at a random interval so the death can't predict when you're suddenly going to get across far quicker then you otherwise would be able to. In terms of messing up and losing your speed this is where suddenly the process becomes just as time consuming as baiting, since you lose your hop but just start it up again over and over until you do it properly. 

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Eh I'd still say it's worth a shot at least to try out, just actively fighting any type of change to the server going off thoughts of what we each think it might be like really doesn't help the server that much for improving/changing. So I'd say just let the vote go through and if it passes then give it a try and we can see if really breaks the server or if it improves it.

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Mouse wheel exists, and you can bind +jump to it and it spams jump, making it much easier to make a consistent hop.

I honestly dislike the argument of "speed caps" or "it doesn't help on every map!!!" because it still increases speed of runners, making it much harder for death to get to the trap in time. You could increase the speed of the death, but there's still the problem of deaths not being able to react fast enough to the much faster runners jumping in/out/through traps. Not every trap is big, but I agree that a very large majority of them are instantaneous. This makes some traps completely useless unless the death is either god of reactions or extremely lucky.

While it may be somewhat fun for the runners to have the ability to bhop, I don't think there is any benefit whatsoever for the death, which seems unfair. (you should probably also take into account that not very many people actually use the speed boosts.)

-1

 

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6 hours ago, Tatost said:

I honestly dislike the argument of "speed caps" or "it doesn't help on every map!!!" because it still increases speed of runners, making it much harder for death to get to the trap in time. You could increase the speed of the death, but there's still the problem of deaths not being able to react fast enough to the much faster runners jumping in/out/through traps. Not every trap is big, but I agree that a very large majority of them are instantaneous. This makes some traps completely useless unless the death is either god of reactions or extremely lucky.

This is not true. As I said I have a lot of experience with deathrun as a whole and you don't have to be a god of reactions or extremely lucky. It's honestly not that hard to get a bhopper, you just have to pay attention better. It's no where near as impactful and difficult as you actually think.

Please try it and see what it's like, or visit a server with bhop on it. It's a lot more captivating and exciting personally for me and all it does is make the game feel less sluggish

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It's pretty clear that its pretty unpopular to want bhop on the server, but I would be down to do a trial run of it on the server just to see if people DO like it, if it doesn't work out then we can remove it.  Otherwise other than that I'm staying neutral since I don't play enough DR to make even a semi-educated decision on the matter. 😋

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7 hours ago, Kypari said:

This is not true. As I said I have a lot of experience with deathrun as a whole and you don't have to be a god of reactions or extremely lucky. It's honestly not that hard to get a bhopper, you just have to pay attention better. It's no where near as impactful and difficult as you actually think.

Please try it and see what it's like, or visit a server with bhop on it. It's a lot more captivating and exciting personally for me and all it does is make the game feel less sluggish

Heres the thing Kypari: not everyone has experience with deathrun/bhop. YOU might be able to catch a bhopper but what about the people who don't have that experience and are overwhelmed by this new element? What then? Tell them to ''get gud'' and thats it? Not everyones like you my guy.

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16 minutes ago, YeEternalTuna said:

Heres the thing Kypari: not everyone has experience with deathrun/bhop. YOU might be able to catch a bhopper but what about the people who don't have that experience and are overwhelmed by this new element? What then? Tell them to ''get gud'' and thats it? Not everyones like you my guy.

Hm? I said it's not that hard implying it's easy to pick up. 

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Just now, YeEternalTuna said:

Heres the thing Kypari: not everyone has experience with deathrun/bhop. YOU might be able to catch a bhopper but what about the people who don't have that experience and are overwhelmed by this new element? What then?

What, I don't really see how this is an issue. Whenever someone starts something new they obviously won't be adjusted to it, but they don't really have to be as they will start to become better overtime through experience like how people do with all games and it will become easier for them to do until it's natural like how deathrun is to them now, so people without experience will eventually get better. Just like they did when they first found deathrun and were probably a little overwhelmed as they had never played anything like that, but still got better over time, at timing people and being used to the game in general which is why I don't get why this would be so much different to learning when it's the same concept. Also I'm pretty sure kypari was just saying that he has been in a community where they did have bhop on their deathrun and how it did work there and that it was actually fun, which is why he thinks that it would work here also; not that he thinks it would be a good idea since he used to it himself

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17 hours ago, Tatost said:

(you should probably also take into account that not very many people actually use the speed boosts.)

So if someone doesn't use rage in FF2 when they know how, does it make it their fault if they lose or are the players just too good? If they choose not to use an advantage given to them, that's their choice.

2 hours ago, YeEternalTuna said:

Heres the thing Kypari: not everyone has experience with deathrun/bhop. YOU might be able to catch a bhopper but what about the people who don't have that experience and are overwhelmed by this new element? What then? Tell them to ''get gud'' and thats it? Not everyones like you my guy.

You hit the button when someone goes into the trap... It's not changing this gamemode's basic mechanics by adding an extra feature.

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18 minutes ago, Bone said:

You hit the button when someone goes into the trap... It's not changing this gamemode's basic mechanics by adding an extra feature.

Yeah but now its just making it harder for death to actually catch someone in a trap. It literally only benefits the runner and before anyone says ''oh just bump up deaths speed'': that doesn't help. Theres still reaction time AND also the fact that now the death has an advantage for those mini-games at the end of each maps (dueling,racing,etc.) which wouldn't be fun to compete against.

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