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YeEternalTuna

Bias and hypocrisy

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15 minutes ago, LemonVolt said:

or you know, follow what the creators of the clan told you to do and punish people for using porn as their spray

like any porn

We aren't ever going to be perfect in terms of what we think is allowed and what isn't. The 3rd spray with the poorly censored real girl to some qualifies as explicit nudity but to some it doesn't literally show the genitalia. It's about minimalizing where it comes down to staff discretion that matters, but in regards to custom content like this it's mostly inevitable.

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54 minutes ago, Tatost said:

 when I read this, I see the word "bias"

 

Well that's not always the case. In this situation, you could definitely see it as that, but I myself don't think it's entirely the case personally. You can have random people come on with questionable sprays and they get away with it depending on the staff member

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46 minutes ago, Tatost said:

 when I read this, I see the word "bias"

I don't agree with this at all in fact.. people are throwing out the word like its nothing just as a blanket to cover almost anything and everything that happened. There's a difference between staff discretion and bias.  Bias is making a decision in favor or against a certain person really no matter the conditions.. so let's say I was playing with one of my best friends and he had a porn spray, and I allowed it even though its CLEARLY against the rules, that would be bias.  Discretion on the other hand would be somebody bringing a certain spray that they are unsure to a staff members attention,  and that staff decides whether or not it should be allowed or not, in HOPEFULLY an unbiased manner. And I know you can say that it may have been one of their friends who sprayed it, and that's true, and that's where bias would come in if that rose to the case. 

 

2 hours ago, LemonVolt said:

or you know, follow what the creators of the clan told you to do and punish people for using porn as their spray

like any porn

We don't allow porn sprays anyways, and we punish accordingly if someone is found to have one.  It's moreso a matter of how a spray is cropped that causes a discrepancy between people like has been stated.  The rule says no explicit nudity, meaning if a spray was cropped in such a way that may be suggestive but didn't actually show anything, it would be fine.. but that's where the problem is, people can GUESS what is cropped out, and that's the only argument anybody can have when they don't actually know for sure what it is, and think that it shouldn't be allowed because they "know" what is cropped.

 

9 hours ago, Bone said:

This is the biggest problem though. The majority of players who have rule breaking or borderline rule breaking sprays are the staff members themselves, it starts with them. Staff members need to be the first to change their sprays and lead by example. Imagine a newcomer or regular seeing a staff member with a rule breaking spray, they're gonna think "Oh, this is ok, because they know the rules pretty well". Until that happens, rewording a rule isn't going to do anything as long as staff refuses to follow it themselves. 

If there are as many staff members or anybody in general that have inappropriate sprays, why wasn't it brought up before now?  I'm not saying there aren't problems with peoples sprays because there definitely are, but again why wasn't it brought to anybody's attention before now? Or at least I myself haven't heard anything of it, so I could be wrong. But I feel like a picture is being painted here that is way bigger than it needs to be.

 

I think an easy solution would be to ask some players and staff members what THEY think of when you say something like an inappropriate spray, so we can get an idea of what other people think and then *somewhat* base the new rule on how people actually think of it, or at least that's my two cents.

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Maybe instead of excusing those higher up, we shouldn't have moderators with such suggestive sprays in the first place, much less an admin. I'd have a hard time taking someone seriously if I broke one of the rules, then five minutes later they go ahead and spray that.

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First of all, we shouldn't be starting a full-scale argument on whether Krampus was biased or anything of the sort. 

This post brings up an issue that truly does need to be resolved. Our spray rule is not specific enough. We have players coming on the server and working around our rule as much as possible. Our current spray rule is as follows; "all sprays cannot contain nudity or derogatory content. This includes any spray that depicts sexual content or anything else that may be deemed inappropriate by Staff."

Now, this spray rule depends greatly on one's opinion. Nudity can be defined differently by many different people. Some may think it is an exposed nipple, while others may see it as a breast or butt itself. Considering many of our server's questionable sprays are a staff member's spray, this rule shouldn't come down to staff discretion. It is too inconsistent and causes discussions like this one to be happening. Frankly, I can't blame Krampus for bias when the rule is so lacking in consistency.

What should be done?

This rule needs to be consistent. It needs to clearly state what can not be shown. It comes down to what the TF2 higher-up division decides. It could be anything as simple as "Sprays may not contain any form of racism or inappropriate content (including the butt, breasts, penis, or anything meant to look of the sort)." The actual wording would of course be up to the higher-ups of course. 

-1 for punishment

+1 for reword

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3 hours ago, Segal said:

 Our current spray rule is as follows; "all sprays cannot contain nudity or derogatory content. This includes any spray that depicts sexual content or anything else that may be deemed inappropriate by Staff."

No it is not. (It might be on some obscure server motd, but Im fairly certain it's not)

-Sprays, avatars and items that are able to be customized cannot contain the following: explicit nudity/genitalia, racism, hate symbols, gore, derogatory content and images of sexualized minors (this includes drawn images).

Nudity by itself is indeed a very vague term that is going to be interpreted slightly differently by different people. So is any other attempt at a blanket term such as inappropriate, pornographic, pg13, etc. This is clearly evident from the back and forth of interpretation that has gone on both now and in the past when these words have tried to be used. That's exactly why I added these two whole words to make it more clear. 

I seriously haven't understood how the addition of such has made it anything but more clear. Not to be disrespectful of anyone in any way, it just baffles me personally. In the end the issue shouldn't be one of interpretation in any capacity at this point as far as Im concerned, it's one of proper enforcement of what is actually said in the rule which I already explained why that has been lack luster.

Really the next thing Im thinking at this point if understanding what is meant when you actually bother to read what is there is so difficult is putting it to a vote to try and see how people want this changed to any capacity. Hopefully things will make the least bit more sense if people can actually look at the way it is being put forward, but I will express one last time that finding a perfect solution that will be consistent for all situations is flat out impossible for something as incredibly variable as this.

 

Edited by Elcark (see edit history)

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Oh boy. So I sat back, but I figured I'd give my two cents.

It's obvious that, yet again, the spray rule needs to be revised and published with clear guidelines. Your best bet would to state that sprays should be PG rated. That way no one is trying to push the boundaries of what's okay to spray, and what is punishable.

+1 Rule revision.
- 1 Krampus gets beaten up for a mistake.
 

On 6/10/2018 at 9:20 AM, Kypari said:

To be honest, I think it mostly comes down to staff discretion and opinion here.

Yes and no. Krampus made a mistake, which is fine, but the result is clear. The rule needs to be revised and ALL of the staff need to be told exactly what is okay and what isn't.
No more of this "let the staff decide if it's okay to spray" stuff.

On 6/10/2018 at 2:03 AM, VinylScratch said:

Poorly censored porn is not the same as cut off porn.

You're funny.
You can still see both butts, just not what is in the cracks. How is that different? ?

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2 minutes ago, Goblins said:

Yes and no. Krampus made a mistake, which is fine, but the result is clear. The rule needs to be revised and ALL of the staff need to be told exactly what is okay and what isn't.

No more of this "let the staff decide if it's okay to spray" stuff.

 

Definitely agreed. It's not fair to have one staff member say one thing and another one say something different.

3 minutes ago, Goblins said:

You're funny.

You can still see both butts, just not what is in the cracks. How is that different? ?

It's mainly in regard to the "explcit" wording, where it could mean that the spray that is censored is not allowed because it's covering what is clearly meant to be there

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Okay okay okay, so just stay with me here, as I see it we've got three options if we're going to change the rules: 

1. Realize that no matter what changes we make to the rules, there's always going to be some form of grey area if we allow any form of sexualized content, and because of this being inevitable, the current set of rules are fine, we've just encountered one of the unavoidable road-bumps, and therefore should deal with the issue but keep the current set of rules. 

2. Try to change the current set of rules to no avail, hypothetically the best we could do is ban any form of nudity including nipples and butts in addition to what our current rules cover, but once again this doesn't really change anything in terms of having to deal with grey areas constantly. 

3. Remove the ability to see sprays. Have to continue dealing with the same issues we're having with sprays with objectors because maybe you don't realize it but people will just fudgeing move to those lmao. 

I don't want to be rude but it does seem like people are hijacking a thread about an admin calling a bad shot to either try and make our rules on sprays more puritanical or remove them entirely. This is the whole reason we have an in-clan bureaucracy, to deal with the inevitable grey areas that will occur no matter what we do. I am slightly more biased because personally I'm not really put off by nudity or weird poop, but I think anyone rallying for a rule change should really examine whether changing the rules will eliminate the problems, or just change the context in which they eventually occur. 

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2 minutes ago, LAN_Megalodon said:

Okay okay okay, so just stay with me here, as I see it we've got three options if we're going to change the rules: 

This is for the most part what i'm trying to express (and similarly, how I've already mostly brought it up to other higher ups).

Just a few things I'd take apart are that to put an explanation on nipples, it should not be difficult to view exposed male nipples as a non-issue compared  to female ones. You can go outdoors and a seeing a shirtless man would be viewed as normal and not though on twice by society, a topless woman on the other hand is a very different story. If we're going to remove sprays then we have to go the whole nine yards and not allow other custom images as well, there's no way around that. Going to such an extreme is going to be all or another. You are right that the thread basically got hijacked but i'm fine with that since the way this rule is viewed is the real issue, not what krampus did (though i'm still very agitated in how the situation was brought to be). 

To put some solid statements down, nothing is going to happen to krampus. This issue did not happen because of him, but because of an inconsistency in enforcement among all staff that I take the blame for. I will however leave the thread open in case anyone else has anything new to chime in on the subject until there's further development on a solution by higher ups. 

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Okay so I’m putting this blunty because I know damn well I’m not the only one who feels like it’s just a bunch of friends gathering together to protect anyone in that circle and not caring about anyone outside of their groups input. Like there’s even random people crawling out of whatever rock they came from, not being relevant in the problem at all, to help save anyone who’s under fire.

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4 minutes ago, NitNat said:

Okay so I’m putting this blunty because I know damn well I’m not the only one who feels like it’s just a bunch of friends gathering together to protect anyone in that circle and not caring about anyone outside of their groups input. Like there’s even random people crawling out of whatever rock they came from, not being relevant in the problem at all, to help save anyone who’s under fire.

Or maybe we don't want to demote staff because multiple other staff haven't ever removed Precious' spray in the past, why would we just demote Krampus in particular?

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3 minutes ago, NitNat said:

Okay so I’m putting this blunty because I know damn well I’m not the only one who feels like it’s just a bunch of friends gathering together to protect anyone in that circle and not caring about anyone outside of their groups input. Like there’s even random people crawling out of whatever rock they came from, not being relevant in the problem at all, to help save anyone who’s under fire.

look at the voting for this and see who all down votes it

 

?

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2 minutes ago, NitNat said:

Okay so I’m putting this blunty because I know damn well I’m not the only one who feels like it’s just a bunch of friends gathering together to protect anyone in that circle and not caring about anyone outside of their groups input. Like there’s even random people crawling out of whatever rock they came from, not being relevant in the problem at all, to help save anyone who’s under fire.

Frankly this all started because of a group of friends crawling out from under a rock and starting a fire themselves. 

And since people are already devolving into bickering and pointing fingers in such a feeble manner instead of actually trying to contribute to resolving any problems, I am going to close this.

~Closed

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