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5 hours ago, grap_grop said:

-1 Good as a member, but people had lots of issues with you as staff.

He was last staff eight months ago, have there been any more recent problems?

58 minutes ago, Caribou said:

-1 Immature, causes a lot of controversy

The only sort of "controversy" was the abuse thread on Krampus, at least from what I've seen. I talk to him on an almost daily basis and he hasn't really brought up any sort of poop he's caused.

I may just be uneducated as poop on this, but some examples would be nice : )

xoxo, tatost

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+1 in all my interactions with Tuna, and yes we're friends so this is bound to be biased, I have always sensed that he has real passion for xG and is genuinely interested in improving it. He seems to know a lot about the community. Also, he is usually* fun to be around and has a positive attitude.

*Tuna, I do have some feedback for you, though. Your forum behavior shows another side to you. You often respond to things in a very pointed way, and while I applaud you for standing up for what you believe in, you don't have to be so negative and destructive about it. You can still stand up for your beliefs but be chill and polite about it. I think people would respect you more, too. I hope you understand what I mean. ?

Anyways, good luck!

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On 6/17/2018 at 10:07 PM, Tatost said:

He was last staff eight months ago, have there been any more recent problems?

The only sort of "controversy" was the abuse thread on Krampus, at least from what I've seen. I talk to him on an almost daily basis and he hasn't really brought up any sort of poop he's caused.

I may just be uneducated as poop on this, but some examples would be nice : )

xoxo, tatost

still waiting for anyone who can provide evidence for anything he's actually done wrong

I know full well that people in private discords talk some serious poop about people for no reason. As I'm no longer in any private discord other than my own (which is just Overwatch players, some of which haven't even played TF2), I can't really do poop for evidence. I'm sure in quite a few of everyone's private discords you just have to put "Tuna" in the search bar and you'll find some poop.

The only poop he's started that I can even remember would be in Skelly's goodbye thread (I was the person who pretty much went off on Skelly, not Tuna) and the Krampus abuse thread, which was him actually thinking that Krampus had a bias against him.

I've actually had a conversation with someone about Tuna recently and asked for any sort of evidence and all they could provide me was "look at the [xG] discord." Nothing really there other than some of the run-of-the-mill tomfoolery. I then asked them again for examples, they were sleeping since it was really early in the morning and said: "I'll talk to you when I wake up." Our two messages were an hour apart. I never got another conversation from them.

Going to keep the name private unless they want to claim it was them here, just out of respect.

TL;DR - Waiting for anyone to provide evidence for what Tuna has done wrong, recently if possible, I think you should overlook stuff that happened before the end of last year since I've had multiple people say he's immature or he causes controversy. He hasn't started anything since Krampus's thread if you would exclude Skelly's thread since that was me who started the poop.

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2 hours ago, Tatost said:

TL;DR - Waiting for anyone to provide evidence for what Tuna has done wrong, recently if possible

@ElcarkI know you said some people may not have evidence, but there is not a single reason people should claim he's caused controversy without anything the back themselves up.

I believe it was Bello in Skelly's goodbye thread who said: "You can't really prove someone is mature, but you can prove that they are immature." 

If you guys think Tuna started poop, well, ok. But at least provide a link to a thread, a screenshot to a message in discord (don't leak private discord stuff, because that's kind of a dick move tbh), or maybe even a demo of him talking poop over the mic.

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24 minutes ago, Tatost said:

@ElcarkI know you said some people may not have evidence, but there is not a single reason people should claim he's caused controversy without anything the back themselves up.

I believe it was Bello in Skelly's goodbye thread who said: "You can't really prove someone is mature, but you can prove that they are immature." 

If you guys think Tuna started poop, well, ok. But at least provide a link to a thread, a screenshot to a message in discord (don't leak private discord stuff, because that's kind of a dick move tbh), or maybe even a demo of him talking poop over the mic.

You keep going on about evidence as if people just record literally everything they do. They don't, and I think the word of someone is just as good in a staff application unless there is some major controversy, which there isn't.

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3 minutes ago, Kypari said:

You keep going on about evidence as if people just record literally everything they do. They don't, and I think the word of someone is just as good in a staff application unless there is some major controversy, which there isn't.

They don't need to record, they could literally just take a picture of some messages in discord, or give an example of poop he's started. I know that people don't always record stuff, I gave you plenty of examples on how they could provide evidence that shouldn't be that hard to find if he's done all these things.

Someone's word on a subject like this shouldn't be all they need, especially if they're just going to say "he is immature and caused controversy." Staff privileges shouldn't be held lightly, so don't you think that you should at least prove your argument on why he shouldn't be staff?

35 minutes ago, Tatost said:

I believe it was Bello in Skelly's goodbye thread who said: "You can't really prove someone is mature, but you can prove that they are immature."

I may not be highly educated on this, but I just have the slightest feeling that people bandwagoning since one person in their friend group doesn't like Tuna. I know full well what goes on in private discords, and it constantly leads to people ganging up on the person one person doesn't like. This all originates from one person saying in their private discord "grr I hate player X," so everyone in that discord decides they hate them as well.

I only suspect it's just bandwagoning because Kypari, Elcark, Grape, Segal, and Manlyduck are all in the exact same discord. This is a discord I've been in, and I've seen people talk poop.

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13 minutes ago, Tatost said:

They don't need to record, they could literally just take a picture of some messages in discord, or give an example of poop he's started. I know that people don't always record stuff, I gave you plenty of examples on how they could provide evidence that shouldn't be that hard to find if he's done all these things.

Things happen on servers too, and that's where tuna being staff before originates from obviously. That's hard to come by.

13 minutes ago, Tatost said:

Someone's word on a subject like this shouldn't be all they need, especially if they're just going to say "he is immature and caused controversy." Staff privileges shouldn't be held lightly, so don't you think that you should at least prove your argument on why he shouldn't be staff?

They should, I haven't even vouched at all yet.

 

13 minutes ago, Tatost said:

I may not be highly educated on this, but I just have the slightest feeling that people bandwagoning since one person in their friend group doesn't like Tuna. I know full well what goes on in private discords, and it constantly leads to people ganging up on the person one person doesn't like. This all originates from one person saying in their private discord "grr I hate player X," so everyone in that discord decides they hate them as well.

I only suspect it's just bandwagoning because Kypari, Elcark, Grape, Segal, and Manlyduck are all in the exact same discord. This is a discord I've been in, and I've seen people talk poop.

That's a bit of an allegation you have there. First and foremost, I'm going to completely defend Elcark specifically by saying that they are vouching in their own personal opinion as firstly, Elcark does not talk much in that discord and is the type of person to disagree with the most popular opinion (we're both higherups and argue all the time, so it's hardly bias if we're on the same page once lol).

Secondly, you are really pulling out the bias card again. Really? Because someone disagrees with you, you're going to claim that everyone is biased? Are there some vouches that may be biased? Yeah, sure. I wouldn't be surprised if Manlyduck's vouch was biased because of my personal opinion on the topic and because I don't think Manlyduck saw tuna too many times, but in regards to literally everyone else no I wouldn't say so at all. I hardly even talk to grape too lol so I don't know where you're getting that from.

I could say the exact same thing about bandwagoning about nitnat's vouch or whoever vouches positively for tuna in this case. I am also aware that I am not the most popular person and people have pooptalked me too. People have opinions for vouches dude, and there's nothing wrong with that.

And also, vouches don't mean that much in staff applications other than feedback. It is the higherups who decide who gets staff and who doesn't, so all of these vouches such as "immature" or whatever with literally no basis don't mean anything at all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright then, here goes.

First and foremost, I want to address how there has been quite a lack effort and interest of becoming staff, one such thing being activity on the servers. You have not been on much enough for me to want to say "this person is active enough" to get staff in the first place, so you will need to fix that firstly. Another related issue to lacking in effort would be how you don't help people or contribute to a similar standard of other staff who I would consider personally, so you need to bump up showing how much you care about being staff as a whole because right now it really feels like a "this community sucks so I'm going to help it out", which really doesn't give good vibes AT ALL, and if that's not what you're trying to say then that's certainly the vibe I got from this thread and recent events.

Secondly, there was a major lack of maturity and a lot of hyperactivity when you were staff, so much so to a degree where you would often get into arguments with people on the server and cause drama with them, one such person being Skelly. I am aware that after you and Skelly were both warned about the whole situation, you stopped and Skelly continued, which I think was a great thing. However, this does not change my opinion of you when you were staff being immature to a degree where I would like to see a lot more improvements before positively vouching.

-1

Edited by Kypari (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Tatost said:

I believe it was Bello in Skelly's goodbye thread who said: "You can't really prove someone is mature, but you can prove that they are immature." 

This is itself an opinion, whether you choose to agree with it or not. Frankly I do not at all. Maturity is not some base standard that you have and only lack if you do something to lose it. It's a construction of your behavior, and as such can only exist in a positive light if constructed positively first. You do not describe someone as being mature until they've done something that makes you believe they in fact are. 

Just as much as you or anyone who shares the same opinion on tuna as you are not going to be moved by such simplicity as "-1 immature", someone who holds an opposite opinion isn't by "+1 friendly", and someone who doesn't know or have an opinion to hold of him isn't likely going to be moved significantly in either direction by both statements. You're very correct that staff privileges shouldn't be held lightly and denied on a debately mediocre statement alone, but they shouldn't be given based on such a statement either. This is why vouches despite being a way for people to express their opinion on someone are more used to show how this person reflects on others in their actions but don't individually tip scales from simple pluses and minuses the same way it did in membership apps. A positive vouch from a friend isn't always going to have as much weight to it as say one from someone who may have disliked tuna in the past but believes they have improved vastly. A negative vouch from someone who has disliked tuna isn't going to have as much weight as someone who has not known them for long but had nothing but unpleasant experience with them. Regardless of how right or wrong on some opinionated scale someone may be in their vouch, they are still entitled to express it and just as valid as the next person who doesn't back up what is ultimately just their opinion. 

As to my thoughts on those specific examples of "controversy" you mentioned, you said yourself he did not start anything in skelly's thread and even though he may have been the catalyst for the conflict there, he did not create it himself (like kypari said he stepped back after both he and skelly had been warned over their issue far before). With krampus's thread, regardless of intent it was handled very poorly by everyone involved in it's conception including Tuna and certainly hasn't left the best impression because of that. Neither of these though would by why i'd be either for or against tuna getting staff. Whether someone is fit or not isn't determined by something as singular as being friendly, helpful, or having good intent, because someone could be all of these and still do an incredibly poor job at staff for alternative reasons. This is why quite often the best way to determine how someone would do is their behavior on the server over time.

My experience with tuna as to that, as I said before, was entirely negative with him quite often being disdainful or even snobbish when someone breaks rules and when confronted about it would play it off as if it were a joke, effectively ignoring any criticism and at no point showing an attempt to improve on it. If he did so in private or not does not change how he handled it publicly and how that reflected his personality. I also stated that I've seen a lot of pleasantry in his behavior on discord over time and would love to see that reflect on the servers, but like I said just because someone is pleasant does not mean that they would do a good job at staff by any means. I would not vouch for someone positively myself unless I was sure that they would handle it well, and there is nothing I have experienced from tuna first hand or otherwise that shows me this would be the case. 

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13 minutes ago, Elcark said:

I would not vouch for someone positively myself unless I was sure that they would handle it well, and there is nothing I have experienced from tuna first hand or otherwise that shows me this would be the case. 

If you want to take choosing staff to the next level, you should start playing a lot more on the servers the applicant plays on. In this case, Surf, as that is the only server I've ever seen Tuna play on.

While I respect your opinion, I just feel like you make your mind too quickly. I feel as though you should spend a bit more time forming an opinion, especially as a higher up. Our vouches are only meant to sway the higher-ups into coming to our side because in the end you guys just make the decisions instead of it being a majority vote like a member application.

I'm not saying you haven't seen Tuna since he came back, but I am saying that you should make it your job to gather a bit more information than you did when you were an admin, mod, member, or even non-member. If you've already been playing surf with Tuna, then I guess this post means jack poop, but I guess I'm going to post it just in case.

As the final decision rests in your hands, you need to be the most educated on the topic.

 

EDIT: Just going to say that Kypari and I have already talked about my post from earlier. I'm just going to say now that my post was not meant to start a poop storm, so please refrain from turning the thread into something of the sort.

Edited by Tatost (see edit history)

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36 minutes ago, Tatost said:

If you want to take choosing staff to the next level, you should start playing a lot more on the servers the applicant plays on. In this case, Surf, as that is the only server I've ever seen Tuna play on.

I know you're not around often to see it so I will explain that surf is where I spend probably almost half my time on the servers, and lately I have spent a significant amount of time going to ones I otherwise wouldn't at the time specifically to keep an eye on certain individuals over these last several weeks for this purpose. It's regrettable that we are not on at the same time or if it's that I don't notice when he is on (really, I haven't seen him on any server once whenever i'm on despite his hours), but I think you're viewing this all as something it is not by claiming i'm being too hasty in my decision. This is not some cut and dry ordeal where I am straight up denying him staff. I've already stated i'm hopeful to see more out of him so that he could possibly show that he is capable, but also that I can't change my mind without either seeing this or it being shown to me. 

That's why this whole process is open like it is, to give time for him to show improvement or whatever need be and for people to show if that exists or not on applications for it. A major point in what I said earlier can be summed up in this-

59 minutes ago, Elcark said:

Just as much as you or anyone who shares the same opinion on tuna as you are not going to be moved by such simplicity as "-1 immature", someone who holds an opposite opinion isn't by "+1 friendly",

There was nothing in the statements against tuna that made you think he didn't deserve staff, but there's nothing in the statements for tuna that have made me think he does. I know you aren't trying to start poop (s h i t, I'm tired of seeing "poop") and just are defending your friend, and I respect what you're trying to do because of that. It's because of that respect though that I haven't pried at you to explain your defense for him, I definitely believe you think he would make a good staff member, but I hold that same regard for everyone else too which is why I've been defending against calling people out to explain. If people want to, it will help this discussion in either respect which is why I have both times explained my point of view, but no one is required to either. 

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+1 I haven't seen much of the "Toxicity" that is said, and I have seen a lot of improvement with how things used to be, also glad to see you as active as you are. Although there were issues in the past, I would like to say your a better happier version of Bach. 

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On 6/17/2018 at 9:03 AM, TBOHB said:

As much as I hate to say it, but I'm staying neutral. I know I told you I would plus one your staff app if you applied again. But I would need to see you on more. If I see you some more I would totally change this to a +1.

Changing to +1. Has been pretty active lately

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I'm honestly kinda torn on this. From what I've seen of you, I think you're pretty friendly, funny, chill, and nice to have around. You're active, you follow the rules, and I don't believe I've ever had a problem with you. However, I also believe you could have been a tad more mature in how you've handled certain situations in the past. 

BUT, the past is the past, and I do believe you are improving! A good example would be your recent post about immature voices. Compared to past events, I think this was a very mature way to bring up a serious topic, and I feel like it prevented any pointless drama that could have broken out had this been brought up on the server. To me, that was very mature and professional of you, and I thank you for that. If you keep that up, there's no doubt in my mind that you'll join the ranks of staff again.

I still think you're a chill person, and I believe you have the potential to be a great staff member just as you once were. My vote will remain neutral for now, but I wish you the best of luck! ?

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