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Can we have a serious discussion about the nepotism going on in this clan? It's absolutely absurd. Take this thread for instance... It's about an admin using a suggestive furry porn spray. I personally believe that this shouldn't be happening, especially by someone who represents power in the organization. One person, @NitNat offers this suggestion: He made a simple statement, and within five minutes, he got four replies and the thread was closed by the very same people he's referring to. It's the community right now. A lot of them don't want to admit it, but the best way to get moderator isn't to show that you're hard-working, constantly on the servers and reminding others of the rules, but instead get real close to the current administration until you've got a spot in their private discord, at which you're pretty much a shoo-in all the way to administrator. Nobody wants to admit it though, because if they did, the facade would crumble, and they would have to take responsibility for their actions. If you looked at XenoGamers in the past, the best way to get staff positions was to be hardworking. Now all you have to do is talk up admins, and if you're a furry, it helps. I'm really sad to see the dying division head down this path, but there's not much you can do besides look at them and laugh. Take what happened to me for instance. I changed my name to "tired of the tf2 badmins" and had the same group of people defending that it was justified, and not the clear overreaction it was. Was anybody punished for not obeying the handbook? Nope. I got my sentenced reduced to a day, even after the leader told them it was ridiculous. There's a reason I take breaks for months, and come back for a few weeks at a time. I enjoy playing TF2, but the community here has gone to poop with all the favoritism and staff taking things way to personally. I really hope yall can get on track with this. I'm tired of having to walk on eggshells, but if you can't handle some banter or even some lite playful trolling, then what the fudge are you doing being a mod in the first place. I refuse to acknowledge anyone that gets seriously angry about what a person says about them on the internet, especially if they have some semblance of power. Grow a thicker skin, or step down. I tried to put this as civilly as possible, and if the thread gets closed, then so be it. This is pretty much the last post I'll ever make on these forums anyway. Maybe a goodbye thread.

I made a post about this in the past but I will again, I have been here on and off since 2010 and you can't avoid nepotism in a gaming community that is full of volunteers + kids. I have had problems with it even when I rejoined and defended you @Brian, and you know I will always speak my mind if someone is in the wrong. I won't let *majority rule* make me disregard my own thoughts if I strongly disagree about something, so I don't really think it is that much of an issue if I'm involved. Same goes for @virr who is much more closely involved with TF2 than I am, I trust his decisions to the point where I would never have to second guess him, but he still asks my opinion time to time cuz it doesn't hurt to have a second perspective. The thing is, if you're friends with a group of people, it's generally going to be an echo chamber of like-minded views, and disagreeing will be out of the norm, so it doesn't surprise me a group of friends will agree with one of their own on a point of view they share, and how would we even moderate it? Your point on staff as well, of course if John Doe is friends with Admin or Division leader X while showing interest to moderate, they will more than likely get the position if they fit the bill over someone who is quiet or isn't as noticeable. When you're on the servers, there is only so much you can do to "prove" you can be a good moderator, and a lot of it is your personality and how friendly you are with current staff. This kind of poop happens even in the work force, unless there's some kind of stat they can track (i.e. sales). I will say though, that anyone who thinks Brian made this post to start a poopstorm and that he doesn't care about xG needs to really think about their implication, because he would not waste time to make a post like that if he didn't care. You should see the threads I made when I left xG, specifically about various staff who were dragging the clan I worked so hard on down to the gutter.

"I know damn well I’m not the only one who feels like it’s just a bunch of friends gathering together to protect anyone in that circle and not caring about anyone outside of their groups input." Everything in that thread was organized by three people if we want to talk about friend groups. I don't think Krampus is in the right there, I think I've done my best to express that, and the fact that we're kind of friendly towards each other doesn't change that, but it's extremely hypocritical for certain individuals to suggest that "friend groups" are the cause of someone's opinions on the matter when it's that individual and their friend group that orchestrated the whole gig, even rightfully so. then there's displays of absolute genius like these "people are dog-piling their friends this isn't fair" k I don't really care who you are or what your stance on the precious-spray-matter is, all I ask is that people look at themselves for five bloody seconds before they claim that people are deciding issues based on whether an individual is in a friend group or not. Self examination and nuance is not a particularly difficult feat. The best part about those reactions is that there weren't even any negative ones until the thread was locked, which I was you know, going to point out (but locked thread xddd). If you want to make the case that there's some kind of cronyism or favoritism going on it's probably best to just give your friends a heads up to not instantly react positively to your thread, it makes the idea that you're being oppressed a whole lot more believable.

Yeah, I know. People that were once part of the community they loved dearly, and helped establish a great server with wonderful people, cool organization and leaving it in the hands of some great people come back a year later, and find that it's been dumbed down and replaced by people who defend fetish porn sprays then asks themselves "Why does this person hate me" is the worst thing to ever happen to this community. Gain some perspective. You think I do this for fun? Spend my time looking at my past work, at the community's past work, talking with older members of the clan like some jaded football players, reminiscing about the good old days back when it was a fun? I do it because I give a poop about stuff I've helped the community worked on, and don't like it being ruined by immature kids who think they know everything about the world when they haven't even hit their twenties. This is the exact behavior I'm talking about. Instead of asking "Where do you think this is going on?" or "Where you do think we need to improve?", you immediately start defending yourself and then complain that all of your problems somehow involve old members. And threatening to leave? If you can't handle criticism, you don't deserve to be here. Get gone and stay gone, or grow a spine and ask what you can do to make this a more enjoyable experience.

Im just gunna leave this topic with this: xG is a very fun and consistent place imo. I try not to get into xG drama or start it. I just want to hang out on surf and make sure people are doing the right thing. If people are unsatisfied then I have no idea what to do about it. Seeing the community I really enjoy bitting its own leg makes me sad.

Looking in the bigger picture, don't you think the issue of bias is because of how xG is structured? Small Clan --> Community-Based --> Relies on friendships* --> Those not in friendship circles take flack *also it's relatively easy to become staff It's a blessing and a curse. It means people work on the servers because they have passion, and not just for status or money, but it also means it's harder for the staff to hold themselves accountable. Just offering a somewhat different perspective.

Elcark, you need to relax, you go on about holding staff to a high standard but losing your cool isn't exactly going to prove a good point if you can't keep yourself calm about this all.

Closing for now, gonna edit/post my thoughts in a bit

Just saying, the way I got mod was constantly playing on surf, reminding people of rules, helping people in need, and being active on the discord. I do like alot of staff but I wouldn't consider any of them friends atm. Acquaintances?definitely. I havent been perfect staff but i try to make sure that i hold everyone to the standards i hold myself too.

Okay so I’m putting this blunty because I know damn well I’m not the only one who feels like it’s just a bunch of friends gathering together to protect anyone in that circle and not caring about anyone outside of their groups input. Like there’s even random people crawling out of whatever rock they came from, not being relevant in the problem at all, to help save anyone who’s under fire.

Sorry, you're right. I just felt like it needed to be said and this felt like a good thread for it. It's been a bother of mine for a long time

I'm just going to talk about this for a second, because I've not said anything about it until now and I really feel like I need to say it. I go back on what I said before when I banned you. I was an idiot and I've learnt from it now, so I'm sorry for banning you for a month. Luckily, I've learned from that experience and I feel a lot more confident when it comes to bans and such

Im going to come out aswell and say this is partially one of the reason's as to why i stopped playing on the server. I just felt like the entirety of xg developed into groups in which every group despised each other and would lead to people unfriending each other just because of slight issues with each other and no-one seemed to want to try and talk to each other to fix the issues.

Kypari approved the submission

Remember when I hated Bonfire?

First of all, we shouldn't be starting a full-scale argument on whether Krampus was biased or anything of the sort. This post brings up an issue that truly does need to be resolved. Our spray rule is not specific enough. We have players coming on the server and working around our rule as much as possible. Our current spray rule is as follows; "all sprays cannot contain nudity or derogatory content. This includes any spray that depicts sexual content or anything else that may be deemed inappropriate by Staff." Now, this spray rule depends greatly on one's opinion. Nudity can be defined differently by many different people. Some may think it is an exposed nipple, while others may see it as a breast or butt itself. Considering many of our server's questionable sprays are a staff member's spray, this rule shouldn't come down to staff discretion. It is too inconsistent and causes discussions like this one to be happening. Frankly, I can't blame Krampus for bias when the rule is so lacking in consistency. What should be done? This rule needs to be consistent. It needs to clearly state what can not be shown. It comes down to what the TF2 higher-up division decides. It could be anything as simple as "Sprays may not contain any form of racism or inappropriate content (including the butt, breasts, penis, or anything meant to look of the sort)." The actual wording would of course be up to the higher-ups of course. -1 for punishment +1 for reword

So I'm leaving xG. I bet a lot of you are thinking "Oh boy, here comes some juicy drama", well then prepare for disappointment. For about a year now, I've felt weird. I felt like something was off whenever I joined and played (what little I could) and I just couldn't pin down what it was. Today, it suddenly came to me, it's not 2013/2014 anymore. The community just doesn't feel like it did when I first started playing, or even when I came back in 2015. A lot of people would argue that xG used to be better. Some would say xG is better now than it's ever been. I just say it's different. It's not any better, it's not any worse, just different. Players and Staff have essentially rotated and have been replaced with newer people, and along with the rotation so has the general attitude on the servers. While that's not a bad thing, it's just not what I grew accustomed to. For a while now, I've attempted to keep what little of the xG I knew intact, by trying to keep rules the same, revert things to how they were, but realized that I'm the only one who wants it that way. Everyone says they remember when xG was at it's peak, but they'll all give you a different answer on when that was. For me it was when I first started playing, back when there was a specific group of us who would play on VSH. Problem is, the majority of those people are gone now, and due to that I've been becoming increasingly bitter towards the community because "it's not old xG, not how I remember it". But it wasn't really so much xG changing as it was me refusing to go along with it and clinging to how it was nearly 5 years ago with a completely different group of people. The biggest issue for me though was when @Bello stepped down from DL. Someone who was Staff for as long as I could remember, and someone I considered one of the best Higher-ups we'd ever had in the TF2 Division. For some reason I felt like because of that the community would start going to hell with all these strange new Staff members wanting to come in and ruin the community. This almost made me feel contempt for the community, simply because they wanted to change a few things or acted differently. I couldn't even read half of the discussions on Discord without feeling like I was gonna have an aneurysm. Again, this was essentially me fabricating problems and overreacting to small amounts of drama I'd see unfold, becoming unnecessarily disappointed with our new Higher-up roster for really no reason. It wasn't until earlier today when I reacted to a post in a way I don't feel I normally would. It doesn't really help the fact that I was also wrong. After re-reading a lot of what I wrote, I realized I was reacting in a way I didn't like, based on the fact I didn't like the Higher-up because we had small issues before and because he's new to his position. So I came to the conclusion that I should simply remove myself from the community before I cause any real issues or divisions. I really don't want to leave, since I consider xG to be a bit of a home for myself, as dysfunctional as it may be sometimes, but I can't really have a home I feel borderline disdain for. I'd like to apologize to @Elcark for essentially telling him that he's not fit for his position while simultaneously being horribly incorrect myself. I'd also like to thank @virr and @Aegean for just being helpful in general and pulling the TF2 Division out of some tight spots sometimes. For anyone else who may have viewed me as a friend during my time in the community, thank you. I don't know if I'll ever return to xG, but if I do, I'd hope you guys would welcome me without pitchforks and torches. Seeya.

In-Game Name a$$ not censored with dollar signs the forum blocks swearing Division Team Fortress 2 Previous Member No Identity STEAM_0:1:213971687 Previously Banned No Time Active on Servers 16hrs Reason for Joining The reason I would like to be a member is because I kind of bought uber donator and I feel like being a member would just be nice and would make me get closer with the community as a whole. -butt ?

That’s something more to pm him about tbh if it’s genuine, posting it on this thread shows you’re going in full defense mode to save your behind

No, it was a bullpoop statement assuming everyone disagree with them had to be some friend group plotting against them when this whole ordeal was a bloody group of friends doing exactly that themselves. This is also complete bullpoop made up from a viewpoint outside of what actually happens in the community and especially the servers. Hell, all I've ever heard about staff in the past revolve around extreme bias and even people admitting to only giving positions to friends cause of bias. I hold expectations for staff higher then most other people and have seen only one admissions in the entire time I've been here that I can find no reasonable purpose for it existing outside of pure bias. Overall though, there's one major thing that I've become dead tired of. Old people who have left the clan, most the time claiming they want nothing to do with it anymore, still lurking around waiting to jump at any hint of drama or to cause it themselves. This has been an issue for far too long where people come back only to comment on how awful they think everything is, say this that and everything in between is a problem, then end up coming around solely to cause those damn problems themselves when they didn't exist until they did so. I seriously think a lot of the worst people around here have left, and the problems those people complain about are ones that they were the worst perpetrators of, especially with the argument of "groups". Until this old groups crawl up and start mucking about again, this isn't something that plagues the community anymore. You have people like bone who actually try to find a resolution to these problems when they get brought up like this, and then you have other people who go around and decide they'll break rules on the server to try and prove their point. I'm just going to cut myself short at this point, but when you're coming back just to stir things up and not actually help anything, then the nicest way I can put it is please, go away. That's clearly not going to stop though and there's always going to be people coming back for the sole purpose of being buttholes, which is why i'm going to just leave myself at this point.

Enjoy the show, because its probably the last popcorn moment from me.

look at the voting for this and see who all down votes it ?

This is for the most part what i'm trying to express (and similarly, how I've already mostly brought it up to other higher ups). Just a few things I'd take apart are that to put an explanation on nipples, it should not be difficult to view exposed male nipples as a non-issue compared to female ones. You can go outdoors and a seeing a shirtless man would be viewed as normal and not though on twice by society, a topless woman on the other hand is a very different story. If we're going to remove sprays then we have to go the whole nine yards and not allow other custom images as well, there's no way around that. Going to such an extreme is going to be all or another. You are right that the thread basically got hijacked but i'm fine with that since the way this rule is viewed is the real issue, not what krampus did (though i'm still very agitated in how the situation was brought to be). To put some solid statements down, nothing is going to happen to krampus. This issue did not happen because of him, but because of an inconsistency in enforcement among all staff that I take the blame for. I will however leave the thread open in case anyone else has anything new to chime in on the subject until there's further development on a solution by higher ups.

Okay okay okay, so just stay with me here, as I see it we've got three options if we're going to change the rules: 1. Realize that no matter what changes we make to the rules, there's always going to be some form of grey area if we allow any form of sexualized content, and because of this being inevitable, the current set of rules are fine, we've just encountered one of the unavoidable road-bumps, and therefore should deal with the issue but keep the current set of rules. 2. Try to change the current set of rules to no avail, hypothetically the best we could do is ban any form of nudity including nipples and butts in addition to what our current rules cover, but once again this doesn't really change anything in terms of having to deal with grey areas constantly. 3. Remove the ability to see sprays. Have to continue dealing with the same issues we're having with sprays with objectors because maybe you don't realize it but people will just fudgeing move to those lmao. I don't want to be rude but it does seem like people are hijacking a thread about an admin calling a bad shot to either try and make our rules on sprays more puritanical or remove them entirely. This is the whole reason we have an in-clan bureaucracy, to deal with the inevitable grey areas that will occur no matter what we do. I am slightly more biased because personally I'm not really put off by nudity or weird poop, but I think anyone rallying for a rule change should really examine whether changing the rules will eliminate the problems, or just change the context in which they eventually occur.

Omg is that my guy Caleb. Go Caleb. Damn this promo/demo is a throwback Wonder if me posting is also that ?

Definitely agreed. It's not fair to have one staff member say one thing and another one say something different. It's mainly in regard to the "explcit" wording, where it could mean that the spray that is censored is not allowed because it's covering what is clearly meant to be there

Oh boy. So I sat back, but I figured I'd give my two cents. It's obvious that, yet again, the spray rule needs to be revised and published with clear guidelines. Your best bet would to state that sprays should be PG rated. That way no one is trying to push the boundaries of what's okay to spray, and what is punishable. +1 Rule revision. - 1 Krampus gets beaten up for a mistake. Yes and no. Krampus made a mistake, which is fine, but the result is clear. The rule needs to be revised and ALL of the staff need to be told exactly what is okay and what isn't. No more of this "let the staff decide if it's okay to spray" stuff. You're funny. You can still see both butts, just not what is in the cracks. How is that different? ?

STEAM_0:0:69033629 Thank you, friends! Im already in the Admin list as "HachikoTachibana" if that makes anything easier!

No it is not. (It might be on some obscure server motd, but Im fairly certain it's not) -Sprays, avatars and items that are able to be customized cannot contain the following: explicit nudity/genitalia, racism, hate symbols, gore, derogatory content and images of sexualized minors (this includes drawn images). Nudity by itself is indeed a very vague term that is going to be interpreted slightly differently by different people. So is any other attempt at a blanket term such as inappropriate, pornographic, pg13, etc. This is clearly evident from the back and forth of interpretation that has gone on both now and in the past when these words have tried to be used. That's exactly why I added these two whole words to make it more clear. I seriously haven't understood how the addition of such has made it anything but more clear. Not to be disrespectful of anyone in any way, it just baffles me personally. In the end the issue shouldn't be one of interpretation in any capacity at this point as far as Im concerned, it's one of proper enforcement of what is actually said in the rule which I already explained why that has been lack luster. Really the next thing Im thinking at this point if understanding what is meant when you actually bother to read what is there is so difficult is putting it to a vote to try and see how people want this changed to any capacity. Hopefully things will make the least bit more sense if people can actually look at the way it is being put forward, but I will express one last time that finding a perfect solution that will be consistent for all situations is flat out impossible for something as incredibly variable as this.

cya dude. you the newfag of sponsors. real talk though, people come and go, things change. such is the way of life. some oldies stay some go, some newbies rise, some dont.

Maybe instead of excusing those higher up, we shouldn't have moderators with such suggestive sprays in the first place, much less an admin. I'd have a hard time taking someone seriously if I broke one of the rules, then five minutes later they go ahead and spray that.

Noooooooo!!!! Anyone but Bone!!!! I'm going to miss your presence in xG... ?

is there a section for toxic eight-year-old girls? I'd like to sign up. also, rip @Bone one of the few people who I don't dislike. Sucks that you have to leave because you didn't want to cause problems.

Well, I never got to know you too well but you were a pretty damn cool guy when I did see you around.. gonna miss ya. ?

+1 has a mic. Super active and coolboi. A:10 M:9

Considering there's nothing left for me here, I'm out. I think I'm done with gaming communities and gaming in general. Peace out to everyone. Go ahead and remove my member tag.

Hey guys, many of you may know a guy named ABlueSkittle123 from our surf servers. He has contacted me and asked me to write him a temporary goodbye letter and summarize why he's going to be MIA for a while. So the general gist is due to some family sickness he is has moved to Romania for a while to be with his grandparents while he can. This came up very suddenly last week and he was on a plane out of the country the next day so he didn't get the chance to say goodbye. He's sad to be leaving for a while but should be back towards the fall. He doesn't have much access to outside communication while hes there but he can be contacted via discord in case of an emergency. Everyone wish him and his family the best of luck! As skittle would say: BRB deepthroating my mini waffles, and @Caleb956 don't bind that

...oh. congrats Caleb and Nozomi, and hello to all the new members

I do admit, it was pretty stupid of me to say that, for obvious reasons. But the reason I brought this up was to further prove NitNat's point, even if it brought me out as well, and even if it did come out pretty childish.

Or maybe we don't want to demote staff because multiple other staff haven't ever removed Precious' spray in the past, why would we just demote Krampus in particular?

uuhhhhhhhhhh

I honestly have to wonder how many times the rules need to be clarified or revised before people can be held accountable for what they do.

So while this definitely brings up a good discussion on spray regulation, I do no think Krampus is in the wrong at all. Poorly censored porn is not the same as cut off porn. You took two shots with direct nudity and covered it. The other spray has it cut out. On the topic of bias, everyone has a bias but I do not think in this case it is affecting anything. Krampus is a damn good admin and frankly does not deserve this -1

+1 might as well already be a member. also very drunken idiot A:0^9 M:0^8

and that's something I think has improved tremendously due to those groups that cause this having left. Regrettably leaving hasn't stopped them from coming back to track mud everywhere cause they're bored I guess.

Frankly this all started because of a group of friends crawling out from under a rock and starting a fire themselves. And since people are already devolving into bickering and pointing fingers in such a feeble manner instead of actually trying to contribute to resolving any problems, I am going to close this. ~Closed