Remove Rando Melee Crit on AllTrade

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

49 minutes ago, Elcark said:

Re-enabling all random crits then.

I will take that trade off 100% of the time. If you think I am joking, I am not. Random critical kills are 120% better than having to deal with 20 seconds of random bullshıt from 15 other players every minute and a half. You are on crack if you think that is anything less than an ideal trade to me.

[Tatost 604]

Random crits being disabled benefits the people who are there to DM with others, as it removes the idea of luck in a mostly skill-based shooter. To be completely honest I don't mind if we remove all luck based poop, as a DM player I find it annoying that someone hits one shot at ten hp and I lose the fight.

Removing random crits doesn't come close to harming traders, as they probably won't really be doing anything other than sitting in spawn or running around the map exploring.

Please. tell me who is being harmed by the removal of random crits other than the people who rely heavily on them. @Shadower is the prime example of one of these players. Saying "just don't get hit LMAO" isn't even an argument. The reasoning was given by Ian, so I don't think I need to reiterate.

+1 for removal

[hongkongatron 384]

1 hour ago, Elcark said:

That's contrary to the point, being which the level of complaint isn't a perfect reflection of the backing to it when measured by volume. When you have a room of ten people and one is shouting over the rest, it's not exactly a perfect solution to due what the one wants just to shut them up. 

If we made it so the vote was only for people who actually play on the servers, I think it would be very different. To take your analogy and run with it, half of the people who vote on things that would make the servers better and vote against them who don't actually play on the servers are people shouting from different rooms, and different houses entirely.

Edited July 18, 2018 by grap_grop
haha yes (see edit history)

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

Okay so I promised I'd try to do some math when I got home.

Please keep in mind I'm dumb as a rock so if I screw this up feel free to tell me. 

The chance of a randomized critical hit in the video game team fortress two is 2.5% and caps out at a max of 12% if you do enough damage. For now, let's just assume you're playing on a full server and everyone's doing around 200 damage every 20 seconds (because 200 every twenty seconds is more reasonable for every class and player than assuming 800 or whatever the max rampup is). 200 damage every 20 seconds would net you with a 4.5 chance for a critical hit.

Here's the deal though, at the same time you as an individual player fire your weapon and roll for a critical hit, there are also on average, 12 people on the opposite team doing the exact same thing. Let's treat this like a realistic pub setting and just assume that you can only rely on yourself every fight you take.  

Ok so first off, let's find the probability of only you rolling a critical hit in one shot. That would be 4.5% right? We already know that. I'm still going to walk you through what I believe the equation is anyhow.

The chance of not getting a crit, according to the wiki, would be 95.5%  

1-0.955^1 (ninety-five-point-five-percent chance rolled once) = 0.045

Obviously the cumulative probability is still 95.5% to not roll a random crit (or a 4.5% chance to roll one). 

Goodie you, you have a 4.5% chance to randomly deal three times your base damage to an enemy gamer, seems reasonably low right? Okay let's now calculate the probability of the opposing twelve players rolling a random crit. 

1-0.955^12 (ninety-five-point-five percent-chance-rolled-twelve times) = 0.424506452 

Roughly 42% chance that one of those twelve other people gets a crit. 

Now I understand I'm a simpleton and this isn't really an exact science, just really loose math that calculates the cumulative probability of critical hits, doesn't take into account whiffed crits or people with no-crit weapons, people playing seriously as a team or etc, but I digress. This honestly could really just be simplified to "if the other team is rolling more than you are they're going to crit more", but in a game where like 90% of the time you have to solo carry, turning the entire enemy team into a spasm-ing mass that just kind of does three times more damage to you every 42 times out of 100 isn't a great idea imo. This is also why defending teams benefit from random crits far more than offensive teams just fyi, they have set up time and just kind of naturally group up in certain spots, whereas to win on blue you often have to stick your neck out regardless of whether your team follows you or not. Just saying this in case you wanted to know why crits should be removed from the base game entirely.

This isn't even getting into the idea of negativity bias and remembering bad experiences far more than good ones. 

Likelihood is you experience a random crit secondhand before ever getting one yourself.

[Nyxll 6]

+1, I feel like the majority of melee deaths come from random crits, and it gets very annoying. I also think that if this happens, it can encourage players to play differently and more tactically. But this is just a thought.

[virr 808]

4 minutes ago, LAN_Megalodon said:

The chance of not getting a crit, according to the wiki, would be 95.5%  

1-0.955^1 (ninety-five-point-five-percent chance rolled once) = 0.045

Obviously the cumulative probability is still 95.5% to not roll a random crit (or a 4.5% chance to roll one). 

Goodie you, you have a 4.5% chance to randomly deal three times your base damage to an enemy gamer, seems reasonably low right? Okay let's now calculate the probability of the opposing twelve players rolling a random crit. 

1-0.955^12 (ninety-five-point-five percent-chance-rolled-twelve times) = 0.424506452 

Roughly 42% chance that one of those twelve other people gets a crit. 

This isnt how percentages work at all. One person getting a crit or not is independent from any other player. Everyone has a 4.5% chance of getting a crit.

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

10 minutes ago, virr said:

This isnt how percentages work at all. One person getting a crit or not is independent from any other player. Everyone has a 4.5% chance of getting a crit.

I don't get math at all but I'm pretty sure I didn't make the crit chance dependent. Am I not supposed to use percents? Is not each player rolling at the same effective chance every time they fire a weapon? 

I probably shouldn't have used 12 as the number but say you on the blue team jump into 3 enemy players. All of you fire at the same time. Everyone each has a 4.5% chance of getting a crit individually but the cumulative probability of anyone on red getting a crit is higher because they are effectively rolling the dice more times than you, no?

[Elcark 288]

1 hour ago, grap_grop said:

If we made it so the vote was only for people who actually play on the servers, I think it would be very different. 

I've been over this half assed concept more times then i'd like to have. The exact same counter argument exists for people voting on both ways and has been practiced as such numerous times. Everyone here in the community has an equal say for these kinds of things with the way the community exists with no arbitrary barrier to determine whether someone should be allowed or not. People can look at the reasoning to both sides and come to their own conclusion for what should be done based on what arguments people make without needing personal first hand experience. 

The way I view it is the servers are not meant to be taken to such a serious extreme as some people want to. That's exactly why things like rtd exists and random crits still exist on melee weapons. Keeping random crits on just melee avoids them from being over abundant but doesn't disengage significantly from the more carefree attitude of the servers. Steering more towards an attitude focused on combat is the entire reason for the objective server being made in the first place, to have these kinds of changes there instead of gearing the other servers towards a specific playstyle (while still not being "competitive" in the sense of competitive servers, but just more so than the trade servers). 

[Elcark 288]

6 minutes ago, LAN_Megalodon said:

I don't get math at all but I'm pretty sure I didn't make the crit chance dependent. Am I not supposed to use percents? Is not each player rolling at the same effective chance every time they fire a weapon? 

I probably shouldn't have used 12 as the number but say you on the blue team jump into 3 enemy players. All of you fire at the same time. Everyone each has a 4.5% chance of getting a crit individually but the cumulative probability of anyone on red getting a crit is higher because they are effectively rolling the dice more times than you, no?

Now i'm terrible at math too and not going to pretend I actually follow where this concept is going, but wouldn't what you had said only make sense if you're getting struck by every single enemy team mate by melee at the exact same time? 

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

Just now, Elcark said:

Now i'm terrible at math too and not going to pretend I actually follow where this concept is going, but wouldn't what you had said only make sense if you're getting struck by every single enemy team mate by melee at the exact same time? 

This isn't melee, if it was it'd be even more absurd. 

And yes, that was the thought experiment of "let's pretend this is a normal game of tf2 aka you have to do literally everything yourself."

[Brutarii 1]

+1 because even though you could be better than someone and just dodging their swings like a boss, they might hit you one time because we're human and we mess up, but that one swing that does hit is a fudgeing crit and you instadie because rng

[Tatost 604]

14 minutes ago, Brutarii said:

rng

 

[LemonVolt 21]

@LAN_Megalodon  Let me explain when I said "leave the game the way it was supposed to be"  I dont mean keep the entire server base, what I'm talking about is I want the basic stuff like crits and stuff like that to stay in the game. I'm sorry about the confusion. Also you saying the only way to avoid it is to "bait the enemy to miss" is just dodging.

@Kypari   Kind of the same thing that I was talking to Megalodon about, sorry about the confusion. 

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

36 minutes ago, LemonVolt said:

@LAN_Megalodon  Let me explain when I said "leave the game the way it was supposed to be"  I dont mean keep the entire server base, what I'm talking about is I want the basic stuff like crits and stuff like that to stay in the game. I'm sorry about the confusion. Also you saying the only way to avoid it is to "bait the enemy to miss" is just dodging.

@Kypari   Kind of the same thing that I was talking to Megalodon about, sorry about the confusion. 

I don't know if you understand how hitscan works. Most people are pretty lazy with aiming so you can fake going a direction or move erratically  and sometimes they'll miss. That's not the same as dodging though. A scout dodges a rocket because a rocket has travel time and you can avoid where you see the rocket's going to go. You can't "dodge" a sniper rifle shot though, if the crosshair is on you and m1 is pressed you're dead. 

Melee is like aoe hitscan on a slight delay. If your hull areas touch while the swing registers you take damage. There are multiple problems with this system, firstly, the hulls are goddamn massive, not only this but they're square, which means it seems like it's easier to hit someone on a diagonal. Secondly tf2's netcode is poopy doo doo and was designed to be used with dialup internet. Thirdly accepting that both those things are horrible, awful, and enough of a gamble, why would you also want the most inconsistent hitreg in the game to also just randomly insta-kill sometimes?

 

[Moosty 148]

I voted no and broke the tie. Trade servers aren't a skill based game and I cream a little bit whenever that crit sound gets piped into my ears, and I don't want that to stop.