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Elcark

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  • Division
    Team Fortress 2
  • Offenders In-Game Name
    Red
  • Offender's Identity
    STEAM_0:1:52947739
  • Ban Type
    Server Ban
  • Explanation and Evidence

    As a mild disclaimer i'm making this in place of someone who would rather remain anonymous in the ordeal, so ideals and opinions will waver slightly. Of course it's what everyone else feels that is important, this is just to get the situation out in the open.

    So to through it out then, our member @Red has been acting atrociously on the servers as of late. It was first brought to my attention when he and the player yunyun both straight up drove someone off the server and then more and more complaints have been addressed about his behavior. Overall he has constantly acted with disrespect (to put it very lightly) towards all sorts of people on the server, repeatedly used slurs when staff aren't on and apparently trying to bait staff into believing he is a hacker including using an alt to this end (I haven't been able to get a clear answer to if it was positively his own alt, so until a higher up checks such a thing take that piece with a grain of salt). 

    Pieces from chatlogs

    There's the straight forward call for a ban of some kind to take place for all this here, but there's more being asked here then just that. Red's membership is being brought into question for this in terms of being flat out removed. Now i'm going to go ahead and make this more complicated then it has to be and bring up a few aspects in accord to this idea. 
    First of all, there's been many cases of members acting in similar ways and in the more extreme cases it being acknowledged as problematic enough to the point of them getting banned themselves (more than once for some) yet their own membership never came into question. There's never really been a high demand of membership removal for issues of behavior outside of far fewer situations but at the same time there's always been a general claim to the standard at which members are held as representatives of the community and how one should behave in regards to that. If this kind of behavior was done by someone applying for membership today, they would absolutely be denied for it. Now Red has been a member for quite some time and would have received it at a time where it wasn't handed out quite as lightly as it is now, but that brings into question how much merit can be attributed to the difference in how membership is handled now compared to before. 
    In regards to membership when the changes occurred, there was two things stated; membership while easier to receive would also be easier to lose, and also that there would be some differentiation in membership through some form of "senior" membership or some similar method. Whether this was dropped for reasons pertaining to avoiding a divide between membership or if it was simply forgotten about, it's never been cleared to much of an extent at all from @virr @Rhododendron and @Aegean where how this has been passed up for some many people in the past stands between actual trust and merit someone has earned vs turning a blind eye. 

    A far more simple way of viewing this though would be a matter of if this kind of behavior on the servers should be tolerable for any one of our members who represents the community as a whole through such actions. 

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+1 on ban.

In the past I had gone to admin calls to deal with Red and his alts, along with him using slang in server while staff wasn't on. 

I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to make a post on it.

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+1

I've seen Red change badly from these past few months, I remember one time seeing that he had three or four calladmin's in one day under a previous alias "gingo" for micspam, I finally had caught him the third time or fourth time, but it took a long while.

He's also been acting really toxic recently too, as Elcark said, he had people leave the server due to it. Although I haven't seen it myself him making people leave, I have seen the more disrespectful side Red.

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8 minutes ago, Bags said:

-1

Red is a pretty chill dude and brings more fun to the server than negativity. There is no reason for him to get perma banned for saying the n word with an a ending mind you which isn't generally used a racial slur.

One look at chat logs would show you otherwise unfortunately. Nothing personal to red of course, but none of this is allowed. I don't think the idea is necessarily a permaban as that is far too extensive.

 

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37 minutes ago, Bags said:

for saying the n word with an a ending mind you which isn't generally used a racial slur.

Even if it is not generally considered a "racial slur" we specifically have rules stating we do not accept racial slurs of any kind or loopholes of them, so what is publically accepted as to whether or not it's a slur has no merit in this situation since we have rules specifically stating otherwise.

 

+1 for week ban and removal of membership,  calladmins have repeatedly been called on him and on more than one occasion his toxicity has been brought up, so we either have to take action at some point or nothing will ever get done.  Adding onto the situation is the fact that his behaviour along with a few others have literally driven people away from the servers, which is completely unacceptable in every way,  shape or form,  and I would expect Red to know all of this considering the time he has been here, the rules are rules even when a staff member is not on, and everyone is expected to follow them regardless.

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Disclaimer: just wrote my respond about this and its pretty late so my bad on the spelling and lack of grammar.

7 hours ago, Elcark said:
  • So to through it out then, our member @Red has been acting atrociously on the servers as of late. It was first brought to my attention when he and the player yunyun both straight up drove someone off the server and then more and more complaints have been addressed about his behavior. Overall he has constantly acted with disrespect (to put it very lightly) towards all sorts of people on the server, repeatedly used slurs when staff aren't on and apparently trying to bait staff into believing he is a hacker including using an alt to this end (I haven't been able to get a clear answer to if it was positively his own alt, so until a higher up checks such a thing take that piece with a grain of salt). 
  • Pieces from chatlogs

     

 

I was in the wrong at the beginning when I thought I wouldn't get in trouble when I began to micspam baby noises for brief 5 seconds until sorcerer told me to stop which I did then replied a few moments later with a pedophile remark about my child then we both just started to argue and use slurs when arguing in chat but I got gagged for racism when he said the n word also and I started chatting to @SegFault to deal with the situation by either giving us both the same punishment. Which i personally thought i was dealt with.

I never associate with luxuria to and to even bother trying to make him quit the server. it was mainly yunyun trying to dm him on aquatic which then he proceeded to leave afterwards until giving a statement on how he depressed which I would then later say.

LcMNMNG.png

I wasn't even trying to go for luxuria I was just pissed off at sorcerer that day which isn't really a good excuse but I will owe up to it and accept it that I made him leave the server due to that one comment and even though I never tried to target him in anyway. 

I don't recall everything that happened that day but please if anyone who was there thought otherwise please come forward with your perspective of the situation and I would like to have their side of the conversation if anyone could provide.

to keep it plain and simple, sorcerer made pedophile remark on voicechat or chat ( I don't remember.) which I would then get furious and start to go at him before staff got involved and would take a dig at luxu

 

8kAyXE6.png

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I told YunYun to not associate with sorcerer due to the fact that previous day was coming at me and @Bags on mic and was constantly complaining about dying and was trolling then would begin to talk about wave for most of the time and called him massive wave fanboy. I don't see how any of that would mean I was toxic just simply telling a friend not to talk to one person.

M7DT5S6.png

brutarii changed his name to n-cartel which I would then say "nigger cartel" * no excuses 

XcqCRec.png

I still don't know how this is relating to me being toxic? The "cry about it" was just bind I made cause Megan/Vesper would usually spam that in chat which I would then say it after her.

lag switching was a joke when I saw cheeto lag on the server a ton until I realized it was his connection and I would say stop lag switching just to see his respond.

mpFe72X.png

EjXbmM6.pngWzWx9J4.png

 

For all those slurs remarks i'd like to take full responsibility of them and say that I kind got tired of being censored and would use those slurs during times when I was playing with either friends on the server or late night tgh or pkmn trade when it wasn't really populated or staff wasn't on. I got used to it because no one really noticed until recently where i'll just say it out of the blue or to go after someone. 

 

7 hours ago, Elcark said:
  • A far more simple way of viewing this though would be a matter of if this kind of behavior on the servers should be tolerable for any one of our members who represents the community as a whole through such actions. 

Members shouldn't be doing the exact opposite of what he should be representing on the server and by that I owe up to it.

I'm fine with week or two for toxicity / racism.

as for membership removal i'd like to keep it but hopefully work on my behavior while i'm away from the server.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Elcark said:
  • apparently trying to bait staff into believing he is a hacker including using an alt to this end (I haven't been able to get a clear answer to if it was positively his own alt, so until a higher up checks such a thing take that piece with a grain of salt). 

Funny you mention.

I have script which makes me spin once I press my f key but I usually just do this after a kill as a habit but I seen multiple players and even staff doing this but i'm the one getting called for this? If maybe you came to me in either discord or steam we probably could had gotten it resolve soon but no one warned me about this.

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2 minutes ago, Red said:

Funny you mention.

I have script which makes me spin once I press my f key but I usually just do this after a kill as a habit but I seen multiple players and even staff doing this but i'm the one getting called for this? If maybe you came to me in either discord or steam we probably could had gotten it resolve soon but no one warned me about this.

I think it might be to do with how you're often on an alt account that looks incredibly new, whereas staff are all wearing cosmetics, no private profile (etc)

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Just gonna say the reason why we don't remove people from member often is because we would be pretty much telling him he doesn't have a place in our community and to find a new one. The ban I have no opinion on and will accept whatever the TF2 staff decide, but -1 on member removal based on his response.

Edited by Aegean
Bad Wording (see edit history)

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14 minutes ago, Kypari said:

I think it might be to do with how you're often on an alt account that looks incredibly new, whereas staff are all wearing cosmetics, no private profile (etc)

I only have 1 alt which is s1x.

I just clean my alias list once in while and i have a phone which has bad battery so i can't really login to my main so i decide to play on my alt sometimes.

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In regards to Red and Sorcerer I believe the context of it is understandable, he was trying to defend his daughter who keep in mind, is a young child, and I can't even imagine how offensive and infuriating it was to hear what was said and read that about a his own child.

As for the interaction with lux, I was not there so I can't voice much of an opinion there.

 

55 minutes ago, Caleb956 said:

I would expect Red to know all of this considering the time he has been here, the rules are rules even when a staff member is not on, and everyone is expected to follow them regardless

I fully agree with this and believe a extended ban is in order for general behavior, interactions with others, and trolling.

In terms of revoking membership, I think Aegean nailed, just because Red messed up a bit doesn't mean hes not welcome here IMO. He's been a long standing member and an active contributor to our community, which I feel shows he cares more than enough to stay part of it.

+1 for ban, -1 for revoking of membership.

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29 minutes ago, Red said:

I only have 1 alt which is s1x.

I just clean my alias list once in while and i have a phone which has bad battery so i can't really login to my main so i decide to play on my alt sometimes.

It does really come across badly to staff, so try to keep that in mind!

In terms of the behavior on the servers, I can't say you're the only person who acts like this. There has been a wave of people who have been fairly toxic and aggressive to other players recently on TGH (though I personally feel you are a bit more distinct), so I hope this is some kind of a wake-up call to you guys!

In terms of punishment, your response is definitely making me lean more towards a +1 week ban and -1 removal of membership. Nice to see that you want to improve yourself, I respect that immensely! However, if such events do happen again, obviously something more serious such as your membership being revoked will actually be in much more serious question than this.

Edited by Kypari (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, SegFault said:

In regards to Red and Sorcerer I believe the context of it is understandable, he was trying to defend his daughter who keep in mind, is a young child, and I can't even imagine how offensive and infuriating it was to hear what was said and read that about a his own child.

As for the interaction with lux, I was not there so I can't voice much of an opinion there.

 

I fully agree with this and believe a extended ban is in order for general behavior, interactions with others, and trolling.

In terms of revoking membership, I think Aegean nailed, just because Red messed up a bit doesn't mean hes not welcome here IMO. He's been a long standing member and an active contributor to our community, which I feel shows he cares more than enough to stay part of it.

+1 for ban, -1 for revoking of membership.

That's taking the context backwards since as deplorable the situation was for both sides revolving that particular comment, red had already been going at him before it was said. 

timestamp for comparison 

Screenshot_2018-09-25-00-36-38-1.png.ef6b82ee777d59c92b4edabd3d49fe6f.png

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Aegean said:

Just gonna say the reason why we don't remove people from member often is because we would be pretty much telling him he doesn't have a place in our community and to find a new one. The ban I have no opinion on and will accept whatever the TF2 staff decide, but -1 on member removal based on his response.

I'd say this is both an exaggeration to an extent, and personally not even accurate as a generalization. If membership was viewed with this kind of extreme in mind then it would be a different story when some people have been denied membership multiple times until they succeed only on the forth or fifth attempt. While this has been the way things were pushed for certain membership removals at a point it was taken more seriously, membership is viewed a lot more lightly since people no longer needed any form of backing to get in (hence why it was claimed as easier to lose) there's also cases of the opposite such as with @Tatost having his membership removed then reinstated within a month and even voluntarily giving up membership and then accepted back with open arms afterwards. I have full doubts of anyone looking at repercussions here that harshly and instead see it as a need for a behavioral adjustment if members are going to be held to any kind of a standard. I may not have been in favor of removal of red's membership, but went into detail because I would think it nice to have a more concise ideal for when membership should come into question instead of the contradictory attitude that has been expressed overtime. Whether that would be having a higher (but at least layed out) standard for members, a more passive attitude and only holding removal for the most extreme of situations (kinda where I'd prefer things) or somewhere in between by bringing the idea of different types of membership back to light (really not in favor of this as it could end up being rather underdevloped and unfair). 

Edited by Elcark (see edit history)

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