Overwatch?

[Moosty 148]

Mei is Bae. The ultimate character for playing like an absolute bitch. Walling off supports from their team. Flank freezing people. Charging in like a dumbass and going into the ice block in their face, then just back up and put a wall underneath you, Dank memes ready to go. So much self sustain. You can even be a worse person and just ice block yourself until your abilities recharge. 100/10 disruption class done right.

[mrnutty12 184]

Well, overall Overwatch could be really good, but I have a few gripes with it. (see below)

 

WARNING: OPINIONS AHEAD, DON'T GET ALL TRIGGERED OVER IT

 

1) Maps, They are chokey as hell and can be very easy to lock down with certain heros/combos that make the game incredibly slow and boring to play while you try to break the stalemate. Most of the KOTH maps are manageable however, though they have their moments of chokepoint hold contest. (example of maps that people don't like because they are full of chokepoints; Dustbowl, Goldrush, Hoodoo, Hydro)

Also, they have taken much from TF2 in terms of balance (eg. Mercy-Medic similarities) so why can't the learn map design as well?

 

2) Team Colors, The lack of team colors can be a bit hard to get used too, especially with all of the visual clutter that goes on particularly in team fights where the chaos and flashy effects can make it difficult to quickly assess who is on what team. Other games can get away with this more because they don't have the same sort of chaos on the player's screen. (Seen in games like, Guns of Icarus, Chivalry Medieval Warfare, Star Wars battlefront [any of them], Unreal Tournament, Fistful of Frags [to an extent], and many more)

 

3) Visuals, Overall this game, while pretty, does suffer from a large amount of eye-grabbing, flashy, and visually obstructive effects (though it has been lessened since the earlier stages) that can make it hard to identify a lot of things. (a couple of games that clutter your screen for no good reason; CoD, Battlefield, or Kiling Floor 2 at times [Think about those chaotic fights with lots of body parts exploding...])

 

4) Character silhouettes, Basically, a distinct outline each class/hero has that makes them easy to identify. IMO the biggest offenders here are McCree, Soldier 76, and Reaper as they all have similar body types, and the skins can help blur those lines some as well. Some others are easier to tell like Roadhog or Zenyatta (spelling :confused:) so it is more of a cse by case business, but can be vital info in some cases.

(Games with Good Character Silhouettes; Chivalry medieval warfare, star wars battlefront I&II, Battleborn to an extent, Star Wars The Force Unleashed [repetative gameplay but they made sure you knew what you were fighting], both Killing Floors, Guns of Icarus [original,online,new co-op], and ace of spades to name a few)

 

5) Excessive stuns/slows/movement control, It may work in other types of games, but movement control is outright annoying in the FPS genre. Not to mention the classes that have the most prominent movement impairment have some serious hard hitting attacks/abilities. cough cough Mei/Roadhog/Junkrat/McCree Cough Cough

(most fps games don't have it)

 

6) legal Aimbots/wallhacks, I get that Ultimate abilities are supposed to fit with the theme of the character and all, but aimbots/wallhacks are both unfun/unfair to fight and generally annoying. Plus hackers are that much harder to find out.

(Call of Duty and DOOM are the only games I know of with full on wallhacks, even then it is for one player against one player)

 

7) No vote kick system, self explanatory, you are stuck with that hacker/afk/troll...

 

8) lack of community content, as a mapmaker I find this one kinda depressing, you won't find amazing community maps like many of the maps Valve has added.

(Note: for the future, I have not heard about any mapmaker software included in the release)

(Extra Note: Many games have mapmakers, DOOM and Ace of Spades have them built into the game menus. Others such as any source game, Chivalry MW, both original SW Battlefronts, both Killing Floors, Quake, any UT game, and many more allow custom creation of maps)

 

9) No community servers, from what I have gathered there won't be a server browser, forcing everyone to lay the game exactly how it was designed, so no casual competitive (competitive configs, but playing for fun. Think TF2Center type things) or fun type things unless Blizzard decides to make it an official gamemode.

(some examples include, UT, Quake, any source game (minus portal and maybe L4D), SWBF I&II, SW Republic Commando, KF 1&2, Chivalry MW, older CoDs, Minecraft, and ARK survival to name a few)

 

10) Customization, I hear people praise this game for it's customization options like sprays and skins when you have far more in depth systems available. Not that it is bad, but it could be better.

(Games like Loadout, DOOM, Minecraft, and KF have commendable customization to varying levels)

 

11) 20 tick rate, Should be a thread with infos on reddit, but I heard there was a tickrate of 20 on official OW servers. For reference Valve games run on 64 tick servers by default.

(Literally the only near mainstream game that have 20 tick servers is CoD, and they have lots of lag complaints...)

 

12) Hard counter all over, It isn't fun to be destroyed as a spy just because someone went pyro, odds are they are 10x worse than you, but they killed you just because they chose your hard counter as a class. Same applied in Overwatch, some characters just destroy others without much one could do about it. Soft counters is a much more enjoyable style where while one class may have an advantage in a fight (eg scout v demo) you could still outplay that soft counter because you were better than them at the game (demo lands pipebombs on the scout). (or chivalry, where the archers counter things like the MAA because they can one shot him easily, but get walked on by knights because of the shields. It works there because a properly skilled player can evade pretty much any counter, but it is certainly a counter system)

 

13) Pointless progression system, It really is just kind of an arbitrary number there to feed your hubris. One could achieve a high rank just by sheer amount of games played as opposed to skill. If there is a point to it, please point it out because I can't find one.

(given, it is like CS:GO in that you need a certain amount of levels to get into the competitive que. Not a huge fan, but at least it has a point)

 

14) $40 price tag minimum, Fairly self explanatory, not everyone has money and some people don't think this game is worth $40+ at the moment.

 

15) Lack of skill based movement, Besides something like Junkrat's conc mine there really isn't all that much skill based movement (eg. explosive jumps/bhops/damage surf/rampslides/ect.). Instead the movement is very 'press x button and get launched into the sky' or 'press y button and move to z player'. While this may not be extremely vital, it does detract a lot from vertical play and skill ceilings by limiting them to simple options or none at all.

(many games since DOOM [the original] have had skill based movement, seen in modern day source games and games like UT/Quake)

 

All of that said, There are a few things this game got right.

 

1) The maps are very pretty, it is a visually stunning game and is fairly well optimized.

 

2) It can be fun at times and better players will do better

 

3) they encourage good team composition

 

4) Accessible at any level of play

 

5) Has built in competitive from launch

 

6) Plenty of variety

 

7) NO RANDUMB CRITS <--- big one

 

8) Fix a lot of balance issues that certain games suffer from (TF2 and useless classes)

 

Extra thoughts... Not for any purpose but some observations made whilst playing.

 

They made the Pyro(Mei) even more infuriating to fight by strapping the Natascha and Sandman's lovechild to the flamethrower and made it really cold.

Demoknight (Reinhart) was made into a useful thing that actually meaningfully contributes to the team outside of fighting potatoes.

They made the demoman white... Also, rip stickies.

Soldier(pharah) now takes even less skill than before.

Mercy's pistol is actually worse at self defense than the syringe guns, at least assuming you don't have aimbot tier accuracy, but with some of these characters...

Zarya plays much like heavy, she has lots of hp, the ability to block damage and to block damage for allies (block vs heal, sandvich), a primary that is only effective in close range(minigun), and a useless melee attack(heavy melee in general.

If Blizzard ripped so much out of TF2, then why couldn't they make better maps (less reliant on gimmicks like choke points) or at the least, bring in people who know map design/balance?

 

By no means do I think it is bad, just flawed. Like certain other games I play...Cough TF2 Cough

Oh and before I forget, this game plays nothing like TF2. It's like comparing CoD to Battlefield, similar but very different at a base level.

 

My 2 cents for now, I probably missed some stuff, but meh.

 

EDIT: Grammar n' stuff

Edited May 14, 2016 by mrnutty12 (see edit history)

[ChickenPanda 66]

Soft counters is a much more enjoyable style where while one class may have an advantage in a fight (eg scout v demo) you could still outplay that soft counter because you were better than them at the game (demo lands pipebombs on the scout).

As someone who played demo in silver, this triggers me. Scout is such a hard counter to demo it's not even funny. TF2 is balanced around the same "rock paper scissors" meta that Overwatch is. The only "soft counters" would be involved with weapon unlocks in TF2 (ie, scout gets rekt by engi, scout equips bonk.)

 

Lack of skill based movement

Blizzard was avoiding this on purpose, just btw. In Team Fortress, rocket jumping was not a mechanic that was intended at first. Blizzard added some movement that was meant to be in the game, like Junkrat's shift ability. I also wouldn't call it "skill based" movement, considering I had a right click bind on soldier that pretty much rocket jumped for me.

[ArminArmout 129]

Well, overall Overwatch could be really good, but I have a few gripes with it. (see below)

 

WARNING: OPINIONS AHEAD, DON'T GET ALL TRIGGERED OVER IT

 

1) Maps, They are chokey as hell and can be very easy to lock down with certain heros/combos that make the game incredibly slow and boring to play while you try to break the stalemate. Most of the KOTH maps are manageable however, though they have their moments of chokepoint hold contest. (example of maps that people don't like because they are full of chokepoints; Dustbowl, Goldrush, Hoodoo, Hydro)

Also, they have taken much from TF2 in terms of balance (eg. Mercy-Medic similarities) so why can't the learn map design as well?

 

2) Team Colors, The lack of team colors can be a bit hard to get used too, especially with all of the visual clutter that goes on particularly in team fights where the chaos and flashy effects can make it difficult to quickly butts who is on what team. Other games can get away with this more because they don't have the same sort of chaos on the player's screen.

 

3) Visuals, Overall this game, while pretty, does suffer from a large amount of eye-grabbing, flashy, and visually obstructive effects (though it has been lessened since the earlier stages) that can make it hard to identify a lot of things like...

 

4) Character silhouettes, Basically, a distinct outline each class/hero has that makes them easy to identify. IMO the biggest offenders here are McCree, Soldier 76, and Reaper as they all have similar body types, and the skins can help blur those lines some as well. Some others are easier to tell like Roadhog or Zenyatta (spelling :confused:) so it is more of a cse by case business, but can be vital info in some cases.

 

5) Excessive stuns/slows/movement control, It may work in other types of games, but movement control is outright annoying in the FPS genre. Not to mention the classes that have the most prominent movement impairment have some serious hard hitting attacks/abilities. cough cough Mei/Roadhog/Junkrat/McCree Cough Cough

 

6) legal Aimbots/wallhacks, I get that Ultimate abilities are supposed to fit with the theme of the character and all, but aimbots/wallhacks are both unfun/unfair to fight and generally annoying. Plus hackers are that much harder to find out.

 

7) No vote kick system, self explanatory, you are stuck with that hacker/afk/troll...

 

8) lack of community content, as a mapmaker I find this one kinda depressing, you won't find amazing community maps like many of the maps Valve has added.

 

9) No community servers, from what I have gathered there won't be a server browser, forcing everyone to lay the game exactly how it was designed, so no casual competitive (competitive configs, but playing for fun. Think TF2Center type things) or fun type things unless Blizzard decides to make it an official gamemode

 

10) Customization, I hear people praise this game for it's customization options like sprays and skins when you have far more in depth systems available. Not that it is bad, but it could be better.

 

11) 20 tick rate, Should be a thread with infos on reddit, but I heard there was a tickrate of 20 on official OW servers. For reference Valve games run on 64 tick servers by default.

 

12) Hard counter all over, It isn't fun to be destroyed as a spy just because someone went pyro, odds are they are 10x worse than you, but they killed you just because they chose your hard counter as a class. Same applied in Overwatch, some characters just destroy others without much one could do about it. Soft counters is a much more enjoyable style where while one class may have an advantage in a fight (eg scout v demo) you could still outplay that soft counter because you were better than them at the game (demo lands pipebombs on the scout).

 

13) Pointless progression system, It really is just kind of an arbitrary number there to feed your hubris. One could achieve a high rank just by sheer amount of games played as opposed to skill. If there is a point to it, please point it out because I can't find one.

 

14) $40 price tag minimum, Fairly self explanatory, not everyone has money and some people don't think this game is worth $40+ at the moment.

 

15) Lack of skill based movement, Besides something like Junkrat's conc mine there really isn't all that much skill based movement (eg. explosive jumps/bhops/damage surf/rampslides/ect.). Instead the movement is very 'press x button and get launched into the sky' or 'press y button and move to z player'. While this may not be extremely vital, it does detract a lot from vertical play and skill ceilings by limiting them to simple options or none at all.

 

All of that said, There are a few things this game got right.

 

1) The maps are very pretty, it is a visually stunning game and is fairly well optimized.

 

2) It can be fun at times and better players will do better

 

3) they encourage good team composition

 

4) Accessible at any level of play

 

5) Has built in competitive from launch

 

6) Plenty of variety

 

7) NO RANDUMB CRITS <--- big one

 

8) Fix a lot of balance issues that certain games suffer from (TF2 and useless classes)

 

Extra thoughts...

 

They made the Pyro(Mei) even more infuriating to fight by strapping the Natascha and Sandman's lovechild to the flamethrower and made it really cold.

Demoknight (Reinhart) was made into a useful thing that actually meaningfully contributes to the team outside of fighting potatoes.

They made the demoman white... Also, rip stickies.

Soldier(pharah) now takes even less skill than before.

Mercy's pistol is actually worse at self defense than the syringe guns, at least assuming you don't have aimbot tier accuracy, but with some of these characters...

Zarya plays much like heavy, she has lots of hp, the ability to block damage and to block damage for allies (block vs heal, sandvich), a primary that is only effective in close range(minigun), and a useless melee attack(heavy melee in general.

If Blizzard ripped so much out of TF2, then why couldn't they make better maps (less reliant on gimmicks like choke points) or at the least, bring in people who know map design/balance?

 

By no means do I think it is bad, just flawed. Like certain other games I play...Cough TF2 Cough

Oh and before I forget, this game plays nothing like TF2. It's like comparing CoD to Battlefield, similar but very different at a base level.

 

My 2 cents for now, I probably missed some stuff, but meh.

 

EDIT: Grammar n' stuff

half of that spiel was calling it too similar to tf2 then you end with "this plays nothing like tf2"

Edited May 12, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Moosty 148]

Overwatch is a damn good game, And it isn't tf2. Mei isn't the pyro, zarya isn't the heavy, mercy...alright mercy is 100% the medic, only can fly and revive dead players, so it would be better, but mercy can't overheal.

 

It's mechanically so different from tf2, you can tell the devs looked at tf2 as a jumping off point but they really aren't similar games. They wont threaten eachother.

[mrnutty12 184]

what im gettin from this is....

 

-1: not TF2

Besides my side thoughts at the end and some simple comparisons for map references, I actually don't mention TF2 all that much...

Things like lack of community involvement, broken mechanics in a genre based on player skill as opposed to much more strategy based thing have very little to do with TF2. Not that strategy is bad, but they shouldn't sacrifice skill for strats.

 

...

Blizzard was avoiding this on purpose, just btw. In Team Fortress, rocket jumping was not a mechanic that was intended at first. Blizzard added some movement that was meant to be in the game, like Junkrat's shift ability. I also wouldn't call it "skill based" movement, considering I had a right click bind on soldier that pretty much rocket jumped for me.

First off, RJing was in initial trailers for TF2, and it was in all the predecessor games... Also, congrats you can do basic jumps, now get on to that actual complicated stuff like

.

Also, it is an opinion for a reason, I just happen to prefer skill based movement. If you didn't see it, there is a big bolded bit of text that says they are my opinions.

 

half of that spiel was calling it too similar to tf2 then you end with "this plays nothing like tf2"

I make some comparisons on maps and some of the characters, but they also added a lot of more heros than just our 9 familiar in TF2. Naturally with how they changed game balance with additional characters, ults, differently emphasized weapons. They can have similar characters and still play radically differently, (see Battlefield and CoD). Similar in base concepts but branch out much differently from there. Besides some personal ideas on similarities between isolated balance choices, where do I go out and say it is too similar to TF2? If anything, that would be a plus in my book.

 

Overwatch is a darn good game, And it isn't tf2. Mei isn't the pyro, zarya isn't the heavy, mercy...alright mercy is 100% the medic, only can fly and revive dead players, so it would be better, but mercy can't overheal.

 

It's mechanically so different from tf2, you can tell the devs looked at tf2 as a jumping off point but they really aren't similar games. They wont threaten each other.

Ok, I just said the design principles behind the characters felt similar to others that I am familiar with, just my personal thoughts on similar characters between class based, objective driven, cartoony first person shooters (similar at a very basic level???).

 

also, I believe I said something along the lines of that bolded bit...

-snips-

Oh and before I forget, this game plays nothing like TF2...

-snips-

 

 

For the record, Fallacy of Division:

It is committed by inferences from the fact that a whole has a property to the conclusion that a part of the whole also has that property.

Meaning that assuming that something true of a thing must also be true of all its parts is a false assumption. So while some of my issues with the game may be related to certain other games, that does not mean that all of them are complaining about the lack of certain features present in other titles. Many of them are general complaints for the general benefit of the game. Like community content, or a server browser, or a higher tickrate, or tools to deal with less than pleasant community members, etc.

 

If you are going to disagree, why don't you explain why having none of things like those would make the game better instead of just dismissing me.

Edited May 12, 2016 by mrnutty12 (see edit history)

[ArminArmout 129]

I actually don't mention TF2 all that much...

really?

12) Hard counter all over, It isn't fun to be destroyed as a spy just because someone went pyro, odds are they are 10x worse than you, but they killed you just because they chose your hard counter as a class. Same applied in Overwatch, some characters just destroy others without much one could do about it. Soft counters is a much more enjoyable style where while one class may have an advantage in a fight (eg scout v demo) you could still outplay that soft counter because you were better than them at the game (demo lands pipebombs on the scout).

talking about tf2

They made the Pyro(Mei) even more infuriating to fight by strapping the Natascha and Sandman's lovechild to the flamethrower and made it really cold.

Demoknight (Reinhart) was made into a useful thing that actually meaningfully contributes to the team outside of fighting potatoes.

They made the demoman white... Also, rip stickies.

Soldier(pharah) now takes even less skill than before.

Mercy's pistol is actually worse at self defense than the syringe guns, at least assuming you don't have aimbot tier accuracy, but with some of these characters...

Zarya plays much like heavy, she has lots of hp, the ability to block damage and to block damage for allies (block vs heal, sandvich), a primary that is only effective in close range(minigun), and a useless melee attack(heavy melee in general.

If Blizzard ripped so much out of TF2, then why couldn't they make better maps (less reliant on gimmicks like choke points) or at the least, bring in people who know map design/balance?

literally an entire paragraph dedicated comparing it to tf2?

i would also like to point out

If Blizzard ripped so much out of TF2,

Oh and before I forget, this game plays nothing like TF2.

yeah but i guess you didn't talk about tf2 that much

also you talked about tf2 for 258 words out of 1134 words, roughly 23% of it, almost a fourth.

[mrnutty12 184]

really?

-words-

talking about tf2

-more words-

literally an entire paragraph dedicated comparing it to tf2?

i would also like to point out

 

 

yeah but i guess you didn't talk about tf2 that much

also you talked about tf2 for 258 words out of 1134 words, roughly 23% of it, almost a fourth.

 

Well I suppose I could have found some oddball turkish indie developer for an example of hard counters, but I wanted an understandable example of a concept that I thought was bad. Sorry for making an idea understandable for most of the people here. The idea was about hard counters, not TF2 anyways.

 

Second, none of that is even in paragraph format, nor was it intended to be, it was just a few observations I thought about when playing and decided to include them because why not? I suppose it was auxiliary info, and thus unnecessary. Really it wasn't there to make a point but rather as arbitrary thoughts. If you want to count that as part of my pros/cons then go right ahead, but it wasn't intended like that.

 

Third, well I could make another write up of comparisons, but you seem to have taken issue with my first observations. Also, that payload... I could think of maybe one other game that has something similar in game play terms(Chivalry medieval warfare cart objectives) but that happens to be a class based melee FPS (first person swinger?), and not an exceedingly popular one at that.

 

So in actuality about one of my actual issues was explained using TF2 terms, the rest was either auxiliary info or there for emphasis.

[Hushpuppy 104]

Well, overall Overwatch could be really good, but I have a few gripes with it. (see below)

They made the Pyro(Mei) even more infuriating to fight by strapping the Natascha and Sandman's lovechild to the flamethrower and made it really cold.

 

My main gripe with this post. MEI ISN'T PYRO. WHY DOES EVERYONE SAY MEI IS PYRO. SHE PLAYS NOTHING LIKE PYRO. TRIGGERED AS HELL.

[realBelloWaldi 1245]

WARNING: OPINIONS AHEAD, DON'T GET ALL TRIGGERED OVER IT

>this thread

 

[Goblins 580]

My main gripe with this post. MEI ISN'T PYRO. WHY DOES EVERYONE SAY MEI IS PYRO. SHE PLAYS NOTHING LIKE PYRO. TRIGGERED AS HELL.

 

He's comparing in similarity. Similar =/= same.

 

So in actuality about one of my actual issues was explained using TF2 terms, the rest was either auxiliary info or there for emphasis.

 

Putting double emphasis on this statement.

[Vector 138]

D.VA is the best character and best waifu. All others are trash.

 

 

[Owl 192]

what happened to this thread lol

 

overwatch is a great game though, feels very refreshing when compared to the majority of new titles lately. no pay to win, doesn't rely on gimmicks, good presentation, solid balance at a pro level as well as the nooby level. hopefully blizzard doesnt ruin it :~)

 

unfortunately I can't see tf2 hold a competitive scene whatsoever with the existence of overwatch, as overwatch is expected to have more attention from the devs, a larger playerbase, bigger prize pools, as well as simply more interesting gameplay (sorry tf2 players)

 

until blizzard allows the community to make mods or host servers though (lets be honest this wont happen) I can't see overwatch taking over tf2s niche - community servers. xG will be fine, tf2 will be fine, just those 500 comp players and valves new matchmaking probably won't be.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Vector 138]

Most of your arguments are "If valve can do it, why can't everyone do it??" It's because they have different people with different inspirations with different ideas in a genre they have little experience in and they did well with what they did all things considering. It's not fair to compare a 9 year old game with a game that's not even released. Plus if they did it just like valve did then people would be complaining that they aren't doing more on their own.

 

8) lack of community content, as a mapmaker I find this one kinda depressing, you won't find amazing community maps like many of the maps Valve has added.

how can people create maps for a game that hasn't even been released yet?

 

10) Customization, I hear people praise this game for it's customization options like sprays and skins when you have far more in depth systems available. Not that it is bad, but it could be better.

How can you possibly fault a game like this when tf2 didn't have anything similar until 2 years after it's starting life?

 

They made the Pyro(Mei) even more infuriating to fight by strapping the Natascha and Sandman's lovechild to the flamethrower and made it really cold.

The only similarity between the two is how their primaries are used but even then pose two completely opposite mechanics. Plus, Mei has way more use when it comes to her ice wall

 

Demoknight (Reinhart) was made into a useful thing that actually meaningfully contributes to the team outside of fighting potatoes.

But demoknight was a community created class that valve thought was funny and made a map or two to cater to it. It's not like anybody truly used it in comp or if they did they still had grenade launcher and such.

 

They made the demoman white... Also, rip stickies.

Okay?

 

Soldier(pharah) now takes even less skill than before.

Bullshit, there are so many classes in the game it's hard to recognize and prepare for classes that you will face, also rocket jumping is virtually non existance and she has a smaller blast radius. If you're talking about her alt, you can't falt a character that has a different mechanic.

 

If Blizzard ripped so much out of TF2, then why couldn't they make better maps (less reliant on gimmicks like choke points) or at the least, bring in people who know map design/balance?

Most of the maps are fine, the only problem i have with them is that some of the characters feel so big that it feels awkard going through doors but even then the smaller maps make it feel very scary because as D.VA specifically, it's fine using her rocket boost going through multiple doors and behind enemy lines to fuck their shit up.

 

 

Oh and before I forget, this game plays nothing like TF2. It's like comparing CoD to Battlefield, similar but very different at a base level.

Then why is your whole entire post comparing overwatch to tf2 then proceeding to state how every character plays similar???

 

I mean honestly, Shadower's post couldn't be anymore correct.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Vector (see edit history)

[ChickenPanda 66]

First off, RJing was in initial trailers for TF2, and it was in all the predecessor games... Also, congrats you can do basic jumps, now get on to that actual complicated stuff like

.

Also, it is an opinion for a reason, I just happen to prefer skill based movement. If you didn't see it, there is a big bolded bit of text that says they are my opinions.

Note I said "Team Fortress" and not TF2. The original TF was where rocket jumping was "invented" by the players, and no, it was not intended. Also, play some Lucio if you're still convinced there's no skill based movement in OW. =) And what I said about TF accidentally creating rocket jumping is a fact. I couldn't give less fucks about your opinions, I'm just correcting some of your incorrect facts.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)