Hidingmaster

Yeah I'm honestly not terribly worried about getting populated. Just thought it would be a good idea to atleast get a dialogue about leadership going early to avoid as much drama and hurt feelings as possible if it does happen. If we do this we should do it right.

I agree, but from experience the only way it'll be a division is proof of sustained population. It sounds like y'all are confident about it, so you got a good shot at it.

I wouldn't worry about who is going to be what quite yet. As diabeetus said, I am also for it if you can show a sufficent amount of population. This doesn't mean 3 days or a week. You're looking at a minimum of 2 weeks where there is solid numbers and interest from the community. Focus on building the community around the game before wasting time on bureaucratic things.

You also must remember that this entire thing will rely on the final decision of silence as it will require a fair amount of work from him.

Don't mean to be pessimistic, but I want you guys to understand that it will take a great amount of work and dedication to make this into a division.

Some will stay but for the most part they leave to another clan that will accept them for there age, i could be wrong but that is from the people who are in my friends list who get turned down do.

If that's the case then it's obvious that there are major benefits to lowering it. More members=populated servers=more members=more donations...

I think I tend to agree with what Dethman is getting at with his post. I cannot tell you how many member applications have been automatically rejected since May, simply because the person submitting the application was between 14-15 years old. When it comes to terms of growth in our division, like it or not, that's the average age of the people applying to be part of our group.

 

That being said, I can't say for certain that our group has matured at all since implementing the age restrictions. It seems like we still have the same amount of issues with conflict and drama than we did when we were still allowing people to join at 14 years old. It may be unrelated completely, I'm not sure, but from this DM's standpoint, a lot of potential members have been turned down in the past few months solely due to their age.

 

I think that reverting the age requirement to 14 for members might be the right step, but definitely keep the requirement at 16 for any sort of staff position. That's a must. But, as diabeetus said, it's all on Silence to make this call. I just wanted to provide what I've seen since the change has gone through. =)

Do you find that those turned down due to age leave the servers shortly after?

I plan on addressing this issue with the other DMs and DLs, and we will collaborate on the appropriate measures to be taken to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen in the future.

Ok sounds good. If you need help let me or other CLs know. I also don't think you need to get rid of any use of powers for fun (we did it on CSS jb and I thought it was pretty fun for most people), but just make sure everyone is on the same page about when stuff is allowed, how much, what is, etc.

I would really rather have it 16, as I want to mature into a more serious clan that caters towards adults.

I mean im all for an adult oriented community, but if we want to grow is the age requirement the best option. It was different when CSS was the popular division, but TF2 is much more kid friendly. I mean we have people 18+ that have the maturity of 10 year olds and vice versa.

To be quite honest with you, we never really relax the line unless it's a big majority of staff being in a server, and it really isn't very often. Once in a blue moon kind of thing.

 

Typically, if one of these nights do occur, we may push the line a bit, but there is still a line that we just don't cross over. And usually it's in a trade server. This is the first time I can recall something like this actually happening in our JB server.

Alright, thanks. From what I understand this is definitely something you guys need to figure out (not anything for CLs) and stop from happening in the future. I mean I'm all for some nights of fun with powers but set guidelines or something so this argument doesn't arise.

As a person from outside TF2, I do have a question for all. Is there just more relaxed use of powers in TF2? I mean this in a sincere way, I've been on jb a few times and saw things that would have never been allowed in CSS. I have a feeling that this isnt necessarily an abuse issue, rather a confused line regarding what powers are and are not appropriate.

I feel that those positions don't really solve the issues, but just compound them. Unfortunately I think it's way too complicated to have all those positions, it's confusing.

@Hidingmaster I Agree but you guys need to step up ur fudge and make sure xG has a chance to grow, also Silence you are leader, your word is final. Nom is a coder and maybe could be a CL if he actually does help them, But at the end of the day you guys have the power to make xG great and most of you do nothing with it. You guys are the one making the choice of who is and isnt DL/DM ITS ON YOU to make sure they arnt bias like ohstopyou is against vector. Silence should reconsider who the other CL's are and appoint those who are willing and wanting to help the community grow and make sure it has the best chance to be non bias as frick.

I see where you're coming from, but remember I haven't been part of any promo discussion in months. I asked for it time and again. Right now I have now power, and tbh I see nobody giving a fudge about what I posted meaning nothing will change. The only way we remove bias is leave the decisions to one or two people. IMO there needs to be a change in leadership woth ALL decisions of importance going through one or two people that have shown they can make honest decisions, not a variety of people who can't make a proper decision... But I do understand the issues your arise, but until changes happen at the top nothing can change below.

I love you. :(

Alright let me give an opinion from my perspective. I'll preface it by saying that 1) This is a 100% honest opinion, thus I'm not holding anything back and not sugar coating the issue. 2)I don't know what I'll be writing, but if I target someone specifically, its not because I dislike you, but an issue I think needs addressing.

TL;DR: The organization of staff is messed up, doesn't work, and needs to change.

Back when Community Leaders was first implemented there were a lot of assumptions that were made. The first of which is that the CL's would essentially have a final say in most matter, except those that Silence would become involved in. This would be done by a 3/5ths vote, where at least 3 "Yes" votes would need to be obtained before any action taken. This worked well, and CL's had good communication.

Obviously as of recent, actually the last... year, the communication has dropped completely. The CL's are supposed to ALL SEE the promo demo list before it is posted. I have no seen one it a long time. Yes, I have asked numerous times why I am no longer included in this list, but have not received one response from the other CL's. Apparently Dr. Lee is the only one that sees it as far as I know.

If there is an issue in the clan guess who should deal with it - All the CL's. Guess who does deal with it - one or two CLs without any attempt to contact the other ones. Hmm doesn't sound like a very good group anymore huh?

Also, I've sure many people have noticed only a few CLs actually put opinions on important issues on the forums (Diabeetus and I). Yes, Dr. Lee does chime in, but it seems that it can take forever to get responses from the rest of the CLs. I'm not saying im perfect on replying, but I do make an effort to respond in a timely fashion and think I do this for the most part.

Not sure about the other CLs, but I highly doubt they take the effort to follow up on issues. Example: On Jul 17th Diabeetus posted a thread in admin discussion to follow up on Vector's change in ban. I responded same day, saying that there was a problem with the chain of command and I wasn't going to post my opinion until we figured out who is allowed to change bans, who is in charge, etc. Silence responded, and that was it until i followed up on the 23rd to see what was going to happen regarding the ban. Asked TF2 why they permed him. diabeetus responded, saying he was waiting for the other CLs opinions (fine with me). Dr. Lee finally responds on the 23rd. That was the extend of the thread. Nobody solved anything. I eventually talked a little more to vector to figure out more, and we wrapped up his side of the issue. Do the other CLs personally message people to solve issues? I highly doubt it. I rarely see anyone other than me or diabeetus actually do any work related to the CL position.

Next issue.... what the hell was the reasoning behind removing leadership roles? Silence should be leader, nom developer (although what power you should have is a topic of debate, nothing against you hun just clarification needed), and MAYBE a CL position with people that have time to dedicate to the clan (Or 2 co leaders imo).

Issue #72. COMMUNITY LEADERS NEED POWER FFS. Powers I don't have that make it hard to do a proper job:

1) Teamspeak powers. I got locked out of my channel and couldn't do jack about it, what kind of sense does this make for a COMMUNITY LEADER not to have power in TS and solve issues immediately for people?

2) The ability to use our forum powers and the ability to use our ball of mush inside our head to settle issues? It complete bs that we need to get the approval of john, bob, smitty, bojangles, tim, maryann and martha, my mom, his dad, and Obama's permission to do anything. DO YOU KNOW HOW EASY MY JOB WOULD BE IF PEOPLE WOULD TRUST ME TO MAKE A DECISION ON MY OWN.

Issue #91. Activity in games from CL.

I know we don't have the best activity in our active divisions. I mean division, TF2. But I would like to say at least i've made attempts to join and mingle. When dodgeball first opened i was on for a few times at least, and recently I popped on JB several times. I know it aint steller, but at least know im trying.

Issue#92. Bias.

There is so much Biasness in the leadership right now it isn't even funny. Whether or not people think I am I don't care, but just know that I dont give a fudge if your a friend of mine or not. I try my best to judge everyone with the same baseline.

Anyway, rant over. Feel free to ask me questions, comment, hate on me, whatever.

I mean nobody would really say no to it, but is the time investment worth the switch... Probably not.

The ban has no reason to be extended beyond what it was originally discussed. (After the miscommunication was set aside.) Whenever the original ban was set to expire, it should be reverted back to such. I've already spoken to Diabeetus about my thoughts on this throughout the week and this is what I believe should happen. Sorry for the late response.

What was originally discussed was a perm and imo still should have remained. I don't think we have any room to make a final decision until we hear from TF2 people.

So we gonna figure out the situation with Vector? Obviously something concerns TF2 to want to perm him and I would like to know why.

Also still looking for an answer to why promo demos aren't shared with all CLs anymore

Only reason why I was demoted was cause of the "teamspeak war" that the children couldn't take a joke from.

Alright somebody help me out here, I must be missing something. Why would anyone post a ban protest/staff submission/member app and not show a level of maturity? I can't tell anymore if you people are actually serious about getting mod/unbanned or you just come here because yolo mom let me stay up late and I have nothing else to do. I have nothing against Bach, or Vector who posted the same way, but seriously guys? I can't even get through the original post without realizing the thread is full of bs. Aint nobody getting powers or unbanned if you cant, for one time (THE MOST IMPORTANT TIME), be serious. And the people who +1.. What? Either a) You dont care about sincerity and people changing what got them in trouble in the first place. B) #friends and it dont matter. Or c) +1 lol. Good lord. End rant.

No, -1.

Also advice to everyone: The only thing ever stopping you from getting a leadership role is yourself. It may be lack of activity, attitude, or one of many other things. But nobody else is truly stopping you. It doesn't come down to if hidingmaster, silence, kbraszzz, or anyone dislikes you. It comes from your actions, your words, your choices. Don't blame others for the situations you get into or don't get into. This not only applies to places like xG, but everywhere in life.

Ok, just so it might seem less confusing. The head admin is only promoted if a dm is demoted. The head mod only gets promoted when an admin was demoted or promoted dm. There is no 2 head admins or 2 head mods or head admin gets dm while there are already 3. The amount of people as dm and dl will remain the same (2 dl and 3 dm's.) The dm's are more community based and do the rules and handle members while these ranks handle staff based problems. Problem is people are given mod then learn for themselves or ask other mods on the server. Right now current staff is not good and these ranks will sort problems and help staff learn there job before they hold a position for months and don't know what they are doing.

It makes sense, but I think you are attacking a problem that is much bigger and actually requires action in the opposite direction. I completely agree with chronic, we need to simplify ranks again.

Adding more ranks does not solve problems, only adds to the complexity and bureaucratic crap that goes down. I'm all for a restructuring of roles, but not the addition of them.

We need to redo it completely. It's unorganized and a mess.

IMO it worked fine in the beginning, but for some reason CL's, myself included, have been left out of many conversations. This was the root of the problem. In addition, I understand why we "removed" leader, but in reality you should have retained that title and power. We're essentially trying to run a government with no leader, and that never works.

Yeah don't know why it was changed (even though it should have never been changed in the beginning, should have been a perm from the beginning). But I ain't even going to put my opinion regarding this yet, y'all need to figure out the chain of command here. Also, imo the CL thing aint working anymore.

are you serious? this right here is actually offensive. If you don't read my posts how can you tell if i have changed or not? And to buttume all of my posts are bitchy and moaning is even more immature. I actually made a thread about a rule you guys had that i didn't agree with, and the fact you admit that you didn't even read it shows that you aren't taking everyone's opinion into account.

 

What do you even mean when you say

 

 

Are you saying you talked to the CLs yourself and they thought that the ban was fine? That the CLs had a voice in this?

Trying to clear this up, both for you and me. What I'm assuming is that he is referring going back against the permanent ban, saying that the shorter ban was fine (iirc thats what happened). So if thats what he is referring to, then yes we did have a say.

I literally don't have the time or the data to go through all the malicious posting to people from you.

 

Awesome that people who are higher ups support your unban; they are all not from the relevant division. Also, the people that were messing with the ban before had no relevant time played or experience (current experience) with our TF2 player base.

 

If you wish to be unbanned from the other divisions, I'm sure we can find a way to unban you from CS:S, CS:GO, GMOD, etc.

 

Nope. I haven't been reading any of your posts because I don't feel the need to waste my time reading bitchy, moaning posts

 

I, in fact, am not holding a grudge as your previous ban was fine enough for my grievances. You can make up all the excuses you desire, but I am tired of fighting with you. I cannot overlook the complaints from people that arise. When people tell me they have to avoid the servers because of specific people; it makes me sick to hear about it.

 

Maybe if you actually fess up, and stop trying to play favorites with people so you can act however you want, you wouldn't be in this mess. I'm tired talking about it. Until I see some actual improvement, rather than trying to get away from punishment or trying to wait it out, your ban will not be removed.

 

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You can bitch at me all day and call it "racism", holding a grudge, prejudice, anti-semitism, or any other excuse you can think of. I'm trying to be polite and come to a compromise here. If you actually try and own up to your mistakes, and turn a new page, everything can be water under the bridge. Not now, but in the future. Wait a couple months.

 

You can actually see I'm trying to resolve this once and for all so that we will never (hopefully) have to come back to this again. Again, like I said, you don't have to like everyone, but don't be horrible to everyone.

Yes Vector, as a CL I am just making straight up lies now. Come on now, no need to attack me for an opinion. Just as Ohstopyou stated, I am also fine with working with you if you actually show that you are changing. We are hardly here to be biased against you, I honestly don't care if you are banned or not as it has little effect on me. What I am concerned about is that you want this thread to be taken seriously, but I'm getting the notion that you still expect to get into arguments with others and have not changed. Why would we remove a ban for something when we aren't confident the issue has been resolved?

The issue I have to the sheer amount of chances that Vector has been given over the last several years, and there is no true intention I see here to change his behavior in the clan. He was banned because he had been given enough warnings. I'm all for second chances, but when it because a fifth chance? Not without a true and honest effort to change what was wrong in the past. Sorry Vector. -1

We're sorry to inform you but we were unable to approve your request for vacation. Any questions can be directed to HR regarding this matter. Thanks, Management.

+1