Hidingmaster

Uh...

Iirc:

Gkoo

Darkwolf

Poncher

Oh and @Matsi

Ladies please, keep it civil.

Do not abuse admin or moderator powers.

From TS rules..

Also I am taking over this thread. It is now a ban request as I have proof that @MrJeeblez has tried to hack which is against xG rules. The proof is provided in the above screenshots.

Another quality post brought to you by @MrJeeblez.

@Stickz

Post Lenny face -> gets asked not to -> posts it again -> gets mad.

Something is flawed in this logic.

I don't know what happened, but every single person in this clan has lost it.

I mean.. We only need one rating if we got an america one.

sure would be nice if all higher ups are kept informed/on the same page instead of only who you think is relevant at the time still. ;) no reason to hide your discussion from other higher ups start posting threads instead of pms.

It wasn't a conversation between all the higher ups to start with. It was a simple message where a lot of people got added.

I mentioned that but no one answered. Anyways he mights as well get the same punishment if you are doing so for vector.

Yeah, I saw this wayyy back in the convo. But it was ignored and never brought up again.

So just wondering, why has Iggy not been discussed in the slightest about getting his bans changed as well? Certain people fought feverishly for vector, but somehow forgot the idea of fair punishments. Iggy was way less of an issue than vector was, yet he gets stuck with a worse punishment because of bias or what?

[uSERGROUP=23]@Community Leader[/uSERGROUP] @Moosty @metalslug53 @Dethman @kbraszzz @Kyoko @Ohstopyou @Rejects @Nomulous @Rhododendron

Hi.

Hi.

proof>"common sense" is just a simpler way to make all bans justified, IMO and really if he is as bad as they make him out to be, if they had joined the server saw him talking crap, and then just start recording a demo then. not necessarily record every second of him, just when they think he is gonna take a turn for the worse. if he really honestly truly is that bad on servers, they would have plenty of evidence in ~15 minutes.

 

edit: also, you could just ban him in server on the spot at the time of him being bad it's still very nice to have the evidence to back up your ban, you know, incase of a protest.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the idea of having evidence but I think that there are certain circumstances where evidence isn't necessary.

Alright. All this has gone way further than it ever should have. If you don't know what, its two things:

1) Rabid being permanently banned.

2) The "toxicity reform", especially the point where Vector got permanently banned.

I'd like to put a little opinion out there regarding the issue, hopefully to clear up confusion from those not directly involved, and to shed a little light on to the problems I see.

Let me start with the fact that this whole situation should have never been allowed to continue this far. What happened originally is that someone started a thread with Nom and Silence regarding some members they though were not conducive to a friendly environment. Eventually all CLs and other staff members were added to the conversation; a total that now stands at 12 people.

A discussion commenced about the list, stating who we though should and shouldn't be on it. To makes things clear, I clearly defended Asock and said I didn't think he would be a problem anymore. I actually went on to repeat that he wasn't a problem numerous times. (BTW, this is for those that think I was biased when banning him permanently; I honestly was defending him from being banned.) It was mostly a dialogue between me and some Tf2 staff, some other CLs (but not all) very briefly discussed the list that was posted.

First issue I have is that the thread was posted without any planning behind it. We were discussing the list, I got offline, then just hours later it was posted. There was no punishments planned, nothing was figured out except that we had a tier of people. This was by far the biggest mistake in my opinion; anyone remember what happened when Darkwolf was told he was getting banned (Hint: abuse.). Why we would post a thread saying numerous people were in trouble, and not take immediate action is beyond me.

Fine. What happened happened. So we start talking punishments. We essentially come to a conclusion that tier 1 will be permed from everything. It wasn't until sunday that we finally got around to figuring out bans and actually handling them out. It was stated that vector and iggy were getting permed, yet not one person said anything about it.

So, then another issue arises. Asock and warrior start pushing the limits on the forums. I look into it a little, but just brush it off.. its Asock, I mean you gotta be a little more understanding that its just his personality. I say in the convo that its a perm or nothing for Asock, because I have warned him MANY MANY times. So, someone posts Asocks comments in shoutbox basically saying his goodbye to xG. He knows he crossed the line, so I went ahead with the perm. (BTW, nobody responds regarding the issue of Asock for 12 hours which is why I went ahead and actually did something). Within minutes of me stating that he was permed.. of course everyone gets an opinion. Another bunch of useless arguing gets nowhere regarding Asock, so we return to Vector.

Alright, so second thing that really annoys me.

We now have

a) Some CL's voicing their opinion days later, and how it was uncalled for that we banned Vector. (Seriously? We went over this, and not one of you guys had an issue).

b) We have TF2 staff members threatening us by saying they are leaving, bob the plumber is gonna leave, etc if Vector gets unbanned. Even one of them saying they found a replacement for their Staff position if Vector gets unbanned. (Threatening us? Seriously? Can we just maturely discuss the issue?)

So if you haven't caught on yet, or maybe i'm just ranting and terrible at explaining what I'm getting pissed about its the following:

People aren't voicing their opinion until after a decision is made. Here's where they say I wasn't on to see the convo; well, it went on for more than 24 hours. Had the thread not been rushed out like a news story then we would of had time to properly talk about things.

Stop threatening CLs that people are leaving. We get it. It won't influence our decision. Why? Because that would be unfair, we need to find the just punishments not what you all personally want.

Cut the crap. EVERYONE. Good lord, I have CLs getting angry, div leaders/managers getting angry, people still insulting each other and not letting them have opinions, what the hell guys.

"1. The CL's want to keep an old friend just because he has been here awhile." - I DON'T CARE IF ITS MY BEST FRIEND FROM HIGH SCHOOL. Maybe everyone else is biased but i dont give two poops who I am ever banning/defending, I try to be fair. So don't group everyone in the same boat.

And regarding the evidence rule. Could we go ahead and allow some common sense to be substituted for evidence in rare circumstances. I don't go around recording every moment of every conversation someone has, its not fair or right to do that. But common sense tells me who has acted poorly for a long time.

Now, to end it im going to publically state my personal opinions on both Asock and Vector's bans.

ASock: Yes I defended him. Yes I then banned him. I've personally dealt with him numerous times in the past, actually permed him once before. Some how it was lifted, without any discussion as far as I was concerned. Why was he permed that first time? He was 100% harassing and bullying me. It was like 2am and nobody was on, he mad me feel like shit; so I took actions into my own hands and permed him. Pretty appropriate for what he was saying. But fine, they unbanned him, we talked and I let him know he had no more room for error. I actually began to respect him for turning around and being much more community oriented. But, he knew he was on his last warning and he broke rules. Whether or not he instigated it or not, it was retaliated and he knew better.

Vector: Again, we discussed it, issued bans and it was fine for a little bit. But then some CLs decided now it was a good time to have an opinion. No we have to deal with the consequences of being unprepared. I think he should stay banned, and maybe, just maybe have a chance to be unbanned in the distant future. I won't be for unbanning him, I see no reason to change my point of view.

Sorry about novel length post, but sometimes you gotta show everyone what the hell is going on for things to get fixed. And because someone will take this post as rude or disrespectful, thats not the intention. I enjoy everyone in this clan, but at this moment some of my opinions highly differ and the lack of communication between everyone has create numerous problems that I highlighted.

And i guess since I am criticizing a lot of things, if you have criticism for me feel free to leave it; I actually don't mind listening to the community for ways I can help be better/make better choices. But be prepared to have a rebuttal twice as long.

Not ALL CLs are wanting him unbanned. Just saying, don't assume just because we all have the position that we believe the same.

In this situation to me it feels like you are being extremely bias. You simply dismissed Brian's over the top bm and OBVIOUS RACISM as something to just shrug off your shoulders but are claiming that Kypari needs to be convicted of a ban in a situation where his bm was not at all as severe as Rabid or Brian. You KNOW this. Additionally, Kypari and Tekage WERE the victims because this all started because of Brian's racism thread aka "British Humor Thread". You also KNOW that no conflict would ever have happened if Rabid and Brian didn't begin with their instigation on Kypari and Tekage. Now, mind you, I don't really like their personalities and am not really friends with them, but its clear to me that you are being biased because you are chummy with Rabid and don't like young kids in xG.

 

@diabeetus @DrLee @ThePenguin @CommunityLeaders ( @Forest )

Maybe I'm too old for this place, but what do you mean by chummy?

You want the truth. People are gonna be against banning certain older members because.. Theyve been here a long time. Brian was a big deal a few years back, its like saying let's ban forest for something. (Essentially banning a well known and popular friend). There are pockets of major biasness in the clan, nobody can deny it.

What do I think personally should happen?

1) Rabid banned. Which he is permed right now, but I do feel bad for doing it meaning it could be changed since I'm getting pressured by other people to get it lessened.

2) Kypari gets a warning since he has never been a problem before.

3) Brian gets a week ban, plus a final warning since it has happened before.

Just my 2 cents, but it'll come down to who has more friends. I promise I'm not trying to be passive aggressive or rude about it, but from my long experience here that's how most stuff goes down.

At minimum he needs a warning though as he does this occasionally.

We all know rabid can go to far, so hopefully its clear why he was banned. Still uncertain whether it will stay a perm for him.

On the other hand, yes chrono if one party is banned the other should be as well if they committed the same wrongs. I don't see a need for any removal of power (not yet at least), although I can see a minor forum ban.

still only highlighting the 1 part that semi-directly involves you. ;)

atleast i can count on one of the CLs to be consistent.

Go back to the parts about double jeopardy, retroactive bans, and that according to my trusted anonymous vigilante source, the involved parties in the convo were "CLs, Nomulous, TF2 DMs/DLs, and Dethman" which most notably comprises people who don't play tf2 much but have been known to have some issues with people (vector, iggy) in a one on one state, and TF2 staff that get "trolled by vector all the time" please show me how there is no bias at all in the party that was discussing banning him along with others who lightly bm compared to what you make it out to be.

 

Note: jurors are cross-interviewed, just check out the people you want to give an un-biased opinion first. go to sources outside the immediate confines of xG, ask old co leaders to give some god damn god opinions instead of people that are salty over some bm they get when another feels they could do the job better.

 

Note2: this is an open criticism thread, dont take it like a personal attack and get defensive when i state CLs in general are going about something wrong IMO instead look at it and give feedback on all the points

List of who was in the convo (forum names):

Hidingmaster

Dr. Lee

Penguino

Diabeetus

Dethman

kbraszzz

metalslug

Moosty

Nom

Rejects

Ohstopyou

Silence

Still not a bad mix.

Also if you really think you're on to something with the biasness, by all means lay it out for us; show us who was biased towards who.

Double Jeopardy issue I can agree with you, but I also see how some people were let continue on well past when they should of.

I publicly do not support any of those bans in "toxicity"

 

Before the weeaboos and furries and bronies and mexicans get at me for again stating my disapproval let it be known it is not just because I am chill with vector I protest his ban. Hell other than the recent perm you gave him, I probably have the most ban time given out vs. him. I do not support any of the bans, here is my reason.

 

1. they are all retroactive bans (taken from things that have happened much in the past.)
   
2. they are all double jeopardy bans (they are banned now for things they were previously tried for, and either acquitted or banned at their individual times)
   
3. none of them compare to other trolls (no major offense towards rabid) but people like rabid and neteX were much worse than any of them ever could dream of. you know what happened to neteX? he got banned from servers and forums. it wasn't until he DoS'd xg that he got teamspeak banned. why are these people banned on TS? it's meant as a public grounds for all people to just talk and relax, very rarely is anyone ever banned on there. it's saved for special offenders (cont.)
   
4. They aren't special offenders, they are light BMers. they dont actually troll (by definition target a person or group and go out of their way to harass them.) they have some salty attitudes and get angry quick, not actually troll. they don't do anything worthy of real bans especially from TS. the only real ban on the list i saw was @Bach for the hacking thing, while i disagree that he wasn't banned based on our rules that he shouldn't have, i see the good intention behind it. (note: batman has good intentions about being a vigilante but the police hunted him/technically are supposed to arrest him even in current comics where he works with commisioner gordon; they don't because he helps a lot)
   
5. the "higher ups" involved in the conversation already have very very strong biased opinions towards the individuals in question. there was no way in hell you were going to receive a fair punishment when they are your only source of discussion.
   

I feel as if the CL system was a good idea, take individuals from higher ups in different divisions, mix them together and get differing opinions, require votes etc. however when you take the opinions of only a select sample that all share common interest/ground, it will be very very very very very very very very very biased when situations like that arise, you should be looking to a real jury. and outside source of opinion who is not effected by it (i.e. if you want to "discuss" perming someone from TF2 because he BMs tf2 staff, you should look to individuals from CS:S CS:GO etc. who don't give a rats butt about tf2 to look over any real evidence instead of testimonials/opinions and then take action on a real jury and their thoughts)

 

that's my thoughts on the recent development, i tried talking to a couple CLs earlier, and they thought i was saying bans are for pussies blah blah blah, instead of listening.

You need to understand that all the higher ups don't share common interest/ground. There were 12 people in the conversation. That's an awful lot of people to be on the same page wanting the same bans. Don't pull the favoritism card here.

Alright, some general things that really just push my buttons:

1) People that can't take serious threads seriously. It's been <20 min since this thread was posted and I already had to delete an unnecessary post. This has been an ever increasing problem, where people think every thread is their own playground, usually in the manner that its going to be a poopstorm and think "Yeah, why not edge it forward".

2) People that make threads poopstorms. Seriously? Are some of us not mature enough?

3) A lot of people seem to think they know what its like to be a DL/CL. Let me tell you all something, it aint anywhere close to as easy as you think.. and why is my number 4.

4) The fear of being demoted. The amount of times I've had to personally deal with someone either bullying, trolling, or general server rule breaking and have been unable to issue a ban or something longer than a day is unreal. I've been the only person on at night many times where a poopstorm has started, either in shoutbox or on a thread, and I can basically do nothing. Why? Either there won't be enough proof in the morning, its been an ongoing thing (so if someone looks why they were banned they only see one small instance, not tons of small ones), and because in the end there is a very high chance that I will get in trouble for banning/punishing them.

4a) The bureaucracy. One of the causes for problem #4. If anybody bans someone, mostly perm, the first question you get is "Did you ask the other CLs?". IT WAS 3 AM, NO I DIDNT FUDGING WAIT FOR ONE OF THEM TO GET ON. I would have loved to consult them in certain situations, but I can't sit there and do nothing when I am personally being attacked by someone.

4b) The lies and doing stuff behind people's back. Mostly reserved for the higher ups, but when did everything become so secret? When we started as CLs we agreed that everything needed a 3/5ths vote and that everyone had to see and approve the promo demo list. I haven't seen anything really happen that required a vote, but I also haven't seen a promo demo list since the last big demotion of TF2. Partly my fault, I should have contacted the other CLs. But I think we need to get together again on these things. Although there really is no need for most of us to see the Promo demo list, it was one of the more important things we did together. Kinda off on a tanget there, but lets get back to lies and doing stuff behind people's back. Since when was it cool to reverse someone's ban without discussing with the person who issued it? Never that I remember. I've permed someone, i'll leave names out (although he knows who it was), and he got his ban removed within 24 hours. That was some bulllllllpoop. Absolutely not a cool thing to do.

TL: DR

Let's think before we post.

Poopstorms are not funny anymore.

It's tough being a thug.

Stop reporting abuse on higherups who are just trying to lay the hammer down sometimes (but please report if it really is a serious power problem)

I can make some decisions on my own.

Don't go behind my back and let people off. (#favoritism?)

I don't think Google is against non-curse words that begin with a s s.

They aren't, but whatever was used to detect inappropriate words obviously is pretty basic.

Unless you want to donate the money required to run the website and servers, we have to have the censorship on as it allows us to get ad revenue.