Why can't we address these issues?

[Hidingmaster 19]

As my general rule: Do not start a flame war, do not disrespect, nor bring any outside arguments into this thread. If you find it necessary to dispute someone here, do it in a mature manner. If you disagree, go ahead and say it, but don't come in here and say everything I said was wrong without some sort of backing to your claim.

 

I don't know where to start, but there is a whole lot of crap going on right now, but to me it seems that a majority of these things are getting completely ignored for reasons unknown. People try to bring up and issue and they are either ridiculed or ignored entirely. Thats not cool guys, and in a matter of hours has sent a riptide through the CS:S division. Its bad enough as it is that we are having some trouble bringing in enough money to keep the servers going, but to have this happen too?

 

1) Let's start off with the rebelling on LR rule thread. This thread has been open for 15 days as of right now and it more than enough support from every level of staff. This requires a simple MOTD edit, yet we keep waiting for silence to do something? What? Take control of your division, make changes for the better. Sitting here and putting it on someone else, whom is very busy, does nothing. You all want to become a better div, but not implementing good ideas doesn't do anything. This could have been taken care of a week ago, yet it still sits with any resolution.

 

2) Darkwolfs abuse thread. Yeah I know "stop trying to start something" blah blah, im not actually trying to start something, im trying to solve something. I hardly think closing that thread so quickly was the right thing to do. How are we supposed to question those with more power if the threads are closed right away. Nobody had really started talking crap in there, it was a more than legitimate thread. This has been brought up more than once, but kudos to Shadow for taking the first step. This isnt a matter of whether or not Dark violated any rules or failed to do his job. I bring this up to question our ability to question those with authority over us. If that was posted for someone like me, warriors, or really anyone not a DM then it would have been left open and a conclusion most likely would have been seen. But now what happens? What about all the people who want to say something but cant? I bet you more than just Shadow feel the same way.

 

3) This encompasses both 1 and 2, and is what really bothers me and many other members, there is a huge lack of communication and ability to input our ideas on thoughts.

 

Mod applications were removed > Only DM's could now bring in new staff members, regardless of our opinions.

 

Threads closed before any input > Can't really say whats going on, both out of fear and no outlets to do it through

 

Rules changed without acknowledgement > Rules are randomly changed without any input from members

 

No trust > DM's clearly don't trust the other staff members. We were given many many warnings from Forest to ask before slaying; this makes sense in maybe 5% of the cases. We got mod and admin because we knew the rules, we know when to slay and when to ask. It was beginning to sound like if we didnt ask everytime then we will have punishments.

 

Absolutely no communication between us and the DM's > Question their decisions, rules, or thought process and you get ridiculed. I'm questioning you because I see it a different way, EXPLAIN to me why your way is right. Im not doing it to argue, im doing it to learn.

 

 

The communication is pitiful, we can't question anything that goes on. I, as well as many other well known and long time members are finding it less than appealing to play anymore because there is no fun in it. We are here to make it better, but in every attempt we make to question something it gets ignored or shot down, thats not how it was 2 months ago.

[Chrono 372]

You are not allowed to have an opinion.

 

#Closed

[Tsuchikure 38]

lol'd^

[Pepper 35]

I agree with how we as mods/admins don't really have much say in the rules and what goes on in our division. We don't get to have a say in who gets mod. These people will be on our server representing the clan to people on and not knowing what they are doing. I don't know how much truth there is to this, but apparantly there have been complaints about the newly promoted mods.

 

Regarding other threads about mods/admins/DM's not doing their job. I find it rediculous how Jordos thread is open for discussion and people put their input about how Jordo needs to be more serious, but when a thread comes up about a DM then it is closed before a "shit storm" happens. Nothing was really said yet. There was a legitimate arguement that darkwolf messed up. I want to know why it was closed other than "Serbian said so". I will ask Serbian myself once I see him on. I mean if you did mess up then shit own up to it say you messed up and move on. One freesmite on an admin isnt that much of a big deal if it acknowledged, but then ignoring him made it worse.

 

In general I would like to see more information coming down the chain of command. I want to know what goes on in my division and feel like more of a part of it and not just sit here and just accept what the DM's say without giving an input.

 

PS @@Hidingmaster Im the only Pepper Adict in the clan.

[Hidingmaster 19]

"I mean if you did mess up then shit own up to it say you messed up and move on."

 

I wish this was the very first thing in the MOTD, it would solve most things.

 

And I forgot to add, its not necessarily the fact that it got closed, but rather we got no reasons as to its closure that were legitimate. To me it sounds as though it was gonna be "dealt" with hopes that it would just slide by.

 

 

@@DrPepperPhreak I've been drinking it longer than you goml

[Forest 309]

2) Darkwolfs abuse thread. Yeah I know "stop trying to start something" blah blah, im not actually trying to start something, im trying to solve something. I hardly think closing that thread so quickly was the right thing to do. How are we supposed to question those with more power if the threads are closed right away. Nobody had really started talking crap in there, it was a more than legitimate thread. This has been brought up more than once, but kudos to Shadow for taking the first step. This isnt a matter of whether or not Dark violated any rules or failed to do his job. I bring this up to question our ability to question those with authority over us. If that was posted for someone like me, warriors, or really anyone not a DM then it would have been left open and a conclusion most likely would have been seen. But now what happens? What about all the people who want to say something but cant? I bet you more than just Shadow feel the same way.

 

For the exact reason that was posted in that thread. Serbian wanted to look into it, and determined that a holyshitflamewar would start if it was left open, thereby asking it be closed. I'm sorry to say, but there is a large comparison between an Admin and a Division Manager. We carry the responsibility of being asked questions regarding the MoTD, and we are expected to know it 100%. Not that Administrators aren't required either, but the title demands more responsibility and knowledge when dealing with anything MoTD related. If it were any other Staff Position lower than a DM, you're right, it would most likely remain open because it isn't expected that Administrators (who only have the ability to start votes and are nearly the same as Mods, no offence, seriously, just making a point) know every single little detail. But the fact that there are people [i'll admit it] out to get Darkwolf, [a Division Manager who not only deals with the MoTD, but also deals with constant bombardments of questions] and have him demoted means insta flaming and griefing. I'm not disagreeing that it should not have been closed, because I honestly think it should be opened, but because half of our Staff Members can't reply in a mature manner without blowing things out of proportion, it was closed so that serbian would leave a reply. (Dat wall of text.)

 

 

No trust > DM's clearly don't trust the other staff members. We were given many many warnings from Forest to ask before slaying; this makes sense in maybe 5% of the cases. We got mod and admin because we knew the rules, we know when to slay and when to ask. It was beginning to sound like if we didnt ask everytime then we will have punishments.

 

Again, going to be completely honest here, 100%. This had nothing to do with trust or knowing the rules. 0. None. Non-existant. I was in no way intentionally disrespecting or calling anyone out (and I'm sorry if it was taken that way) in regards to this. All I am trying to do is make the way our Staff Members moderate more thorough and less impulsive. Why Can't you ask the player why you were killed? It's not a matter of pride, nor is it a matter of know-how in regards to the MoTD Rules. Are you not as reluctant to ask why someone else was killed before slaying them? We ask so that we can be 100% sure, so that we can let them know they dun goof'd and that they won't end up doing it again. I have seen so many occasions where a Staff Member will slay someone without asking, or even providing a reason as to why they were slain. I'm not enforcing this rule to spite you guys or anything of the sort, so much as I am trying to make things more thorough and easier to comprehend. Would you not be upset if you were slain for doing something you thought was right, only to not be told what it is you did wrong, or being instantly CT banned? I for one would be upset and confused, and more than likely to end up mass freekilling due to frustration, all because a Staff Member didn't tell me what I did was wrong or told me why I was slain. I'm also not saying acting so hostile in addressing it too, things like "Idiot, don't freekill." Is that really necessary? Can you not respectfully tell them what they did was wrong? These are the reasons why I am so prone on getting our Staff to be more involved in what they do. And again, I apologize that it came out the way it did ingame. I know you guys are great Staff Members, and you all deserved your ranks, but all I ask is that you give a little bit of thought to what I've said here.

 

Absolutely no communication between us and the DM's > Question their decisions, rules, or thought process and you get ridiculed. I'm questioning you because I see it a different way, EXPLAIN to me why your way is right. Im not doing it to argue, im doing it to learn.

I completely agree. I assume this is directed to All of us as DMs, and I respect your opinion to let us know. You're 100% right, there should not be a time where one of us says something is wrong for the reason "Because we said so", nor is that a tolerable answer. I implore you to please notify myself or one of the other DMs that this is happening, so that we may talk to the other regarding this obvious ongoing problem.

 

So, this is a rather lengthy document, but I feel that you need the most detailed and accurate opinion I can give regarding these issues. As for the other claims brought up, I can agree that there are things that the community should be more aware of including the changing of MoTD Rules. But please, give us some time to work out these problems. There are only three of us, and to be quite honest, there is a problem with all three of us as DMs (we all have our faults), whether it be the lack of activity, lack of unbiased reasoning or just lack of responsibility. I apologize on behalf of us all for not being able to make the CS:S Division a more enjoyable "experience".

 

TL;DR - Sorry guys, not this time. Going to have to go through it all as I did pour my heart out into this.

 

- Dat guy, Forest

[Forest 309]

In addition, I apologize to @@Warriorsfury @@ItsAaron @@Hidingmaster if I offended you in any way. I was not intending it like that, nor did I mean to upset you if I did. (posting this separate as mentions get iffy when edited in).

[Chrono 372]

tbh DMs should be very connected with their staff, and what I mean by that in regards to this post, is that the DMs should be talking to the current mods and admins, and asking their opinions on some of the people they aren't 3k% certain on promoting, before they promote them. because 9/10 times, the person on the server with that new staff member dealing with any trouble he causes, are the current mods and admins, not the DMs. there is physically no way since there are only 3 compared to the numerous admins, unless you live with them and you put a leash on them... literally...

 

 

P.S. if you want your voice heard, message me. I'm not afraid to start shit in steam or teamspeak with someone, and I will keep it anonymous.

[Hidingmaster 19]

@@Forest I'll just start of by saying thanks, and don't ever feel like you guys don't make it a more enjoyable experience. I appreciate the time all of you put in, all the crap you put up with, and especially for the response. Thanks again, I really do appreciate it. The purpose of this is not to ridicule you guys, complain, nor to be a dick but I just figured it was time that the issues were brought up.

 

1st paragraph: I don't know if I would say that Admins are not expected to know every part of the MOTD, in my experience I must know it pretty close to perfect as would DM's. I fully expect there to be an issue every once in a while with misinterpretation or confusion; I've done it before, you forget things... i get it. There may be certain people "out to get him", but my concern is from the amount of people I have heard of dislike for what is going on. I know Dark puts up with a whole ton of crap, has a life outside of here, and is always active (and again, i truly appreciate it), but there needs to be a time where he realizes that he should listen to us and if we are wrong, correct us appropriately.

 

2nd: As I was telling you in game, there is a lot of times where it really comes down to a common sense rule. Baiting, gun planting, spamming guns, spamming chat/mic, racism, disrespect and many other rules are all things that I don't believe require us to ask them before hand.. and these cover 75% of the slays. I do agree that freekills need to be dealt with differently, asking the offender their side of the story. As far as I know this is how it has always been done, and maybe this is what you were meaning to continue. Obviously you see different things than I do since you are watching staff members closely, but as far as I know I haven't seen a lot of issues with this. I would never just slay someone if it was an iffy situation, I always ask first, then decide what to do (unless its one of the common sense ones). In regards to providing the reason, I'll admit I don't do it everytime, but I do my best effort to let them know. Sometimes I dont make it visible and just pm them, so just keep that in mind if you dont see a reason. Do we need to improve giving reasons? Yes. I'm hoping this is kind of the idea you had. It's partially my fault for continuing to argue about it, and I apologize if it pissed you off. At the time it seemed like you were saying it directly at us in a harsh tone, and being already ticked off about other things I probably took it too harshly.. sorry.

 

3rd/4th: Maybe its just me, but I really don't think contacting another DM about it would solve anything. I'm probably wrong with that assumption, but with how close I assumed you 3 were.. it just didn't seem like it would do anything. I'm not all too concerned about the MOTD issue as I know it really wasn't any of your faults, but I know many people would like to be in on any discussions about it (I know there have been some outside of the forums). You may all have your faults, but you also all are great people who made it fun for me every night. We pretty much progressed through xG together and I hope you all realize that I have absolutely nothing against you.. but as an older member I don't want to see anything bad happen and feel like letting you 3 know what I and others have noticed will help us in the long run.

[Warriorsfury 12]

Someone remind me to edit this comment. I'll make a wall of text of my own tomorrow...

[Matsi 35]

1) Let's start off with the rebelling on LR rule thread. This thread has been open for 15 days as of right now and it more than enough support from every level of staff. This requires a simple MOTD edit, yet we keep waiting for silence to do something? What? Take control of your division, make changes for the better. Sitting here and putting it on someone else, whom is very busy, does nothing. You all want to become a better div, but not implementing good ideas doesn't do anything. This could have been taken care of a week ago, yet it still sits with any resolution.

 

DMs dont have access to plugins and to make rebel on LR work you really just need the option in the !lr menu like CS:GO has... otherwise it'll just cause problems.

 

2) Darkwolfs abuse thread. Yeah I know "stop trying to start something" blah blah, im not actually trying to start something, im trying to solve something. I hardly think closing that thread so quickly was the right thing to do. How are we supposed to question those with more power if the threads are closed right away. Nobody had really started talking crap in there, it was a more than legitimate thread. This has been brought up more than once, but kudos to Shadow for taking the first step. This isnt a matter of whether or not Dark violated any rules or failed to do his job. I bring this up to question our ability to question those with authority over us. If that was posted for someone like me, warriors, or really anyone not a DM then it would have been left open and a conclusion most likely would have been seen. But now what happens? What about all the people who want to say something but cant? I bet you more than just Shadow feel the same way.

 

That thread was completely unneeded and had no purpose other than to start shit, if you wanna talk about abusiveness, how about we talk about shadow and his days which "borderline rulebreak/cause mass freekills/teamkills" Like giving a restricted freeday in freedom pit where Ts cannot move at all or they die, and they cant get out unless they have low grav on LR. pretty sure this was invalid and that him killing/telling the other CTs to kill all the people that didn't do it was something like mass freekilling.

 

Also, trying to loophole MOTD is against the rules... the rules mention that games must end at 2-3 Ts remaining. REMAINING, not ALIVE meaning that they end when the amount of Ts playing reaches a certain number.

 

TL;DR...He was told what he did wrong...There was no need for the thread other than to continue argueing something that was already decided.

 

Mod applications were removed > Only DM's could now bring in new staff members

 

They were removed because people would just get their friends to +1 them

 

3) This encompasses both 1 and 2, and is what really bothers me and many other members, there is a huge lack of communication and ability to input our ideas on thoughts.

I talk to 4-7 DMs daily, maybe you need to be more active on TS because it isn't that hard to contact the DMs...

[diabeetus 20]

I talk to 4-7 DMs daily, maybe you need to be more active on TS because it isn't that hard to contact the DMs...

It isn't a problem of not being able to find the DM's, it's that the current CS:S DM's do not notify the rest of the CS:S staff to anything that is happening. We almost never know if a rule is coming up for debate, or when/why a rule is being changed. The closest we come is Forest's thread that just makes it easier to spot the changes in the motd, but it still doesn't allow the CS:S staff any real input in the matter. We're nearly completely cut off from the management of the CS:S div, and we hardly have any say in our own division anymore, as mod applications (which were the only real oppurtunity for anyone lower than a DM to have some sway in the division) were removed, as we all know.

 

That thread was completely unneeded and had no purpose other than to start shit, if you wanna talk about abusiveness, how about we talk about shadow and his days which "borderline rulebreak/cause mass freekills/teamkills" Like giving a restricted freeday in freedom pit where Ts cannot move at all or they die, and they cant get out unless they have low grav on LR. pretty sure this was invalid and that him killing/telling the other CTs to kill all the people that didn't do it was something like mass freekilling.

This thread doesn't need to be completely derailed because of you trying to start an argument. Abuse is abuse, no matter how small or insignificant the action is, and the community should have been given the chance to react and voice their input in that thread, instead of DarkWolf closing it (which you're not really allowed to do, even if serb said he could have closed it himself) after only a couple of responses. Hidingmaster wasn't trying to vouch against DarkWolf or something, he was trying to bring light to the fact that the thread was closed before the community could really give any input. From what I've heard, the issue has been resolved after ShadowSpy talked to Serbian in TS, so it doesn't need to be debated on in this thread.

 

I'm personally upset the most at the lack of voice that the players of the CS:S division have. Mod applications have been gone for quite some time, and rules are changed with little warning given to the staff and members of CS:S. The little representation we had left was taken away with the mod submission, and it's time we got some back. On CS:S we don't have an abundance of mods anymore, in fact we have a lack of mods and an influx of admins lately. In my opinions, there really isn't much reason to keep people from posting in mod submission. There are lots of people who want to get mod, but don't know why they're not. Allowing them to post in mod submission would allow for them to maybe see why they're not getting mod from higher ups. The fact that the rules are getting changed with little notice to the rest of the community doesn't help too. Whenever potential changes to rules or really any kind of tweak to the motd is suggested here in CS:S Discussion, it normally will just fade away from sight and memory, even if DM's and higher agree that the new rule/tweak would be beneficial to the motd. Either one thing or the other must be added back to give us at least some kind of say in the division. There's a lot more I could have said, but it would have just been repeating a lot of what Hidingmaster has already said, and a little bit of what Forest did too.

[Jaybreeze 6]

we just need me as DM. all problems will wither away.

[xGShadowSpy 108]

Would you not be upset if you were slain for doing something you thought was right, only to not be told what it is you did wrong, or being instantly CT banned? I for one would be upset and confused, and more than likely to end up mass freekilling due to frustration, all because a Staff Member didn't tell me what I did was wrong or told me why I was slain.

About what darkwolf did to me (lol) , without the me ending up getting teambanned or massing over it part.

 

@@Hidingmaster A verdict other than the one stated on the abuse thread was made with me talking to Serbian on TS (Im quiet, he's not exactly loud, was kinda weird, got it handled though), contact me on steam if you want to know, I won't say it here.

@@Matsi I could still do a continuable day while they were in freedom pit if it were to reach 000, I could do a simple trivia for lr then the T lring can lr in there or do deagle on air and have an admin abort it, and its livable because of the washing machine being there, It is not guaranteed death unless they fall off the washing machine. And yes, it's easy to contact a DM, but it's THEIR job to let us know when a rule is changed, or other important news.

 

Now, I've been playing in xG since August 2011, didn't join til around may 2011, I've been here pretty much as long as/ longer than Serbian (our CoLeader). I have been here long enough to see how xG progressed, and none of it is good. Everyone in a division used to be able to work together as a division, as a group, now there are factions in xG, atleast in the CS:S Div anyways, im not going to post those factions here so it starts a flamewar/argument, but I know some people would agree with me on that. Admins and mods, used to have a ton more say on what is going on in xG, The whole DM rank should have never been made, no offense to any of them, but the DM rank being made just gives Division Leaders a reason to do less and be inactive (I know poncher doesn't have rcon etc. to do some things, but he is never on the servers/forums/ anything as far as I see). I said this before, the ONLY time mods/admins have a say in a new rule or even know its being discussed, is when someone ( other admins or mods, rarely DMs) makes a thread about it. NONE of the mods or admins are happy about that, and it has led to this thread being made. If I had a say in it (LOLOLOLOLOL) I'd say remove the DM rank all they are is a higher version of admin, If DMs are NEEDED give them and Mods/Admins some equal say on things. Theres no reason Division Leader can't manage the players if they are active anyway, another reason DMs aren't needed.

Back to how xG is progressing, as far as CS:S goes, (I know TF2 is the growing division now, that's obvious) population charts and ranking charts (someone posted them on the forums once) show a great decrease from that of a year or more ago. We used to be The #1 or atleast top10 of all the CS:S Jailbreak, I don't even WANT to check what that is now, I would likely not want to see it.

 

TL;DR - I don't see a point in have the DM rank, the Div Leaders could handle being active (unlike our current one, but I don't thing anyone else stepped up to div anyway) and watching over the players, and also editing MOTD. We mods and admins need more say (#GoOnStrike ) , xG divisions shouldn't have individual factions, divisions should be 1 happy group.

 

EDIT: I don't know why this is quoting everything, I can't fix it

EDIT2: Fixed

[Pepper 35]

Now, I've been playing in xG since August 2011, didn't join til around may 2011

Lol whaat? You went back in time to apply?