Osiris

I am all for trying this out.

I don't know how I feel about this, forcing people to act nice doesn't change the hatred deep inside, if you really want things to change - something else has to be done.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay9BWM8lwOA

So. I want to make my opinion clear. We should only have ecruteak and goldenrod on the server. Definitely no celadon(we shouldn't have unfinished maps on the server, no exceptions also the creator of the map said it wasn't ready, he knows better than we do), DEFINITELY no saffron (the size of the character compared to the size of the map is disgusting), and no victory road (well made, complete, and looks good, but painfully unbalanced in favor of the defense on the last cap, it was on gaming history rotation, the best team couldn't get the last cap on the worst team, terribly unbalanced)
 
The reason pokemon has stayed populated so consistently for so long with only one map, is because Goldenrod is a 100% complete and polished, and altogether well made map. Adding ecruteak works well, as it is the next town you come across in the game, and the map is complete, finished, and reasonably polished. Adding maps just because they're about pokemon is going to lead us down a path of the server depopulating because people don't like shitty maps. This server is successful because of how good of a map Goldenrod is, and Ecruteak is the only pokemon I've ever seen that came close to being the same quality.
 
 
Tl;dr: adding anything besides ecruteak is a bad idea because the population was built on a great map, adding maps that aren't as good could only have one result, a population that isn't as good.

April 29, 2015 - TF2 Team

Added ETF2L 6v6 Season 20, ETF2L Highlander Season 8, and ETF2L Ultiduo 5 medals

Edit: Not to dredge up past threads, but I spent like the past hour composing this proposal and wanted to put my thoughts in, but the thread JUST got locked before I could post it. If a decision has already been reached, whatever. Just wanted to voice my opinion. Lock this thread also if you deem it necessary.
 
 
Alright, so based on the comments in this thread, it seems that many are in favor of a server ban, but divided on a forum or TeamSpeak ban. Apparently most of my thoughts have been voiced already, but I'll put my two cents in anyway. Just hear me out before you downvote my opinion.
 
Many have threatened to leave if Vector is unbanned. Geez guys, do you really think that will make any difference? (I think @Chrono @xGShadowSpy @Brian @diabeetus know what I'm talking about.) I know most of you have a stake in this community or you've been burned by Vector before, but if you really care about xG then you'll stick it out regardless of who gets banned or unbanned. Personally, I think an unban of this caliber will show who the *real* Xenogamers are, but I'd rather not start that firestorm at the moment.
 
I've played on the Pokemon Trade Server on and off for about 2 years, basically since I started playing TF2. Vector has been a butthole for quite a while, but he was still a great admin. He didn't cut corners or play favorites -- if you broke the rules he would mete out punishment accordingly. (Sure, he'd be a dick about it, but it's not like most of those guys didn't have it coming.) So even though he acted like a little turd sometimes after he was demoted, it's not like he's a paragon of evil. Geez.
 
We all know that his behavior been tolerated for too long. He should have some kind of punishment. But a universal permban out of the blue isn't the way to do it (@Dethman @Flareon @Waimalu). I know Vector's history and I've seen his current behavior, and despite all the crap I think he deserves another shot. I think @Forest has a great proposal and I'm behind it 100%. I also agree with @Chrono and @Moosty in that 1) we need to go through the proper ban procedure (i.e. get evidence BEFORE we ban him) and 2) he needs time to cool off before we give him another shot.
 
That said, and bearing @Forest's suggestion in mind, I have two (maybe three) proposals in mind. Both of these have been posted in one form or another already, but I'll add them anyway for convenience and clarity.

The first is that we just unban him. No, I'm being serious. In this case, the staff will monitor his behavior closely, and the rest of us will treat him with respect. Don't incite him or make him lash out, but don't tiptoe around him or treat him like a pariah. Just be cool about it. If he starts something that is in fact ban-worthy, we submit it as evidence in an official player report and he's gone for good. Simple as that.


The second proposal may be an easier pill to swallow for everyone involved. Treat this situation as we do an ex-member who is reapplying for membership. (A good recent example is @Vaporeon's application. Check out @metalslug53's post here: Vaporeon - Team Fortress 2 | Page 2 | Xeno Gamers) Give him a month to cool off, then unban him on the forums and let him submit a ban protest.


The third proposal is kind of a combination of the two. He remains banned, but his sentence is shortened to a month. Once that time is up, he is unbanned on TeamSpeak and on the forums -- on "parole", so to speak. He can submit a ban protest or whatever, I don't really care. If he shows positive social improvement, we'll consider his ban protest and make a decision whether or not to unban him on the servers. Again, he's got only one shot at this, but we give him a legitimate chance to show improvement (see proposal #1). This whole process is kinda like "rehab" for him. If he makes us regret our decision, he gets thrown back in the can. He might shape up if he knows he's got a life sentence facing him if he doesn't.

Personally, I like the third option. I just throw all these out there for you all to consider. If you have a better alternative or want to tweak one of my proposals, I'm all ears. I just think a permban simply based on past offenses isn't right. Think about it. In any justice system in real life, do we take reformed criminals and toss them back into jail just because they committed a crime a decade or two ago? No. Do we convict suspects based only on eyewitness accounts or public opinion? No. I think the same logic should be applied here.
 
Hope you guys make the right decision.
 
~Hero

A decision was reached, and Vector's in-game ban will be reduced to 6 months (meaning he will be unbanned on November 1st, 2015). Additionally, Vector's forum ban will be removed. However, this does not mean that Vector's behavior both on the forums or in-game (when his ban expires in November) will be tolerated by any means whatsoever. During the next 6 months (and additionally when his in-game ban is up) Vector will be under a strict probationary period. If there appears to be no noticeable difference (or possibly even a worsening of) his excessively belligerent behavior, Vector will be permanently banned. Basically, if he keeps up the kind of behavior that has been observed recently, he will be permed. Keep in mind that attempts to instigate or harass Vector in order to get him into reacting in a way that could result in him getting banned will be punished accordingly. Lastly, make sure that if you see something that you would consider to be evidence of excessively negative behavior, take down some kind of evidence. Whether it's recording a demo, taking a screencap of chat logs, it has to be something concrete. Banning people off of hearsay (not matter how truthful it may be) isn't optimal and leads to a lot of future confusion, especially in the event of a ban protest.
 
Trying to remove negative/toxic behavior in xG is going to be an incredibly lengthy journey, and will be a process that cannot be accomplished solely through the efforts of the higher ups/CL's of xG. While sometimes it may not feel like it, we're trying to listen to the community as best as possible while trying to preserve our own values as well. I personally apologize for the chaos that has enveloped the clan in the past week or so, and take responsibility for any and all negative/detrimental outcomes that may come as a result of our recent decisions (including this one). Additionally, I apologize for the apparent flip-flopityness of the decisions of the CL's (Hidingmaster excluded) and the somewhat inefficient method that was used for the carrying out of bans following the posting of the Toxicity Reform thread. In the heat of the moment I think we all just wanted to get something done and didn't really head into it as efficiently and cleanly as we could have. If anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to send me a message on steam or through the forums, or post in the "Opinion on Recent Events Thread" (please try to keep things civil and respectful).
 
~closed.

I'm Done. | Xeno Gamers
 
Sorry Vaporeon, but you left on the 4th of April. Per our rules for member resubmission, you must wait a minimum of thirty days before you can reapply, as per the rules posted in the Member Submission forum, which state:
 
If you have left or got kicked out of xG, and are allowed to re-apply, you must have
- 20 vouches
- A Division Leader from the respective division to agree on your return 01/13/14
- waited a month minimum from the day you have quit/left xG
20/11/2012

Sadly, these +1s are invalid. You'll have to resubmit your post on the 4th of May and no sooner.
 
That being said, you DO have my welcome back, (As well as Moosty's and Rejects' Welcomes too, it seems) and I'll even go so far and let you use the +1s you've already gotten in this thread when you do resubmit your Member Submission. It seems you've already amassed 12 +1s, meaning you'll only need 8 more. (I don't think anyone will mind if we give you at least that much leeway.)
 
Good to have you back. We will officiate it when you resubmit on May 4th. Thread closed.

The only people who want him unbanned from what I see are the people who never (if not rarely) play on tf2 servers. I wouldn't have much of problem if he is unbanned on forums to prove himself, but on tf2 servers, just no.

just because the effect of him being banned is something you think is 100% positive doesn't always make it good, or right? Keep in mind when I started that post-chain trying to get him unbanned, it wasn't only vector. it was everyone there.
 
Like him or not, if you aren't going to present evidence, then there really is no reason for him to be banned. forest's compromise is something not even I would agree on, because he would still be (wrongfully) banned on servers, note: I say wrongfully because much like in teamspeak last night where you all started to see it, there is no legitimate evidence of anything more recent than about a year ago where a decision was already made to demote him. is he gonna get staff back? probably not anytime in the near future.
 
I could gather all my friends, say stop coming on TS for a few weeks, and then claim @ThePenguin scared us away with his mexican-ness. and until he sees justice we wont return. but that just isn't how it works. now if I were to record penguin's disgusting over the top mexican-ness driving us away and present it as evidence, maybe he would be banned, and @Bleed would be safe to go on TS.

While I do understand why he was banned, I don't find that a [permanent] ban on the spot was necessarily justified without prior notice. Vector's behaviour and attitude is certainly volatile and unacceptable, and I can see why so many are against his unban, but to jump the gun to a permanent ban seems excessive.
 
With that said, I propose a compromise that I feel is fair to both parties; those for the unban and those against. I suggest that Vector be unbanned only from Forums for the time being while remaining permanently banned from Servers.
 
During this period, Vector will have the opportunity to show the community that he can produce a community-friendly attitude that doesn't involve overly-hostile or discriminating remarks. With that said, Higher-Ups will need to monitor his behaviour and attitude. This is a crucial step. This will ensure that if he is not able to keep a calm air around him on Forums after being given a chance, then the only choice will be to permanently ban him. After a noticeable improvement in behaviour, an appeal for an unban from Servers can be made where the community will determine whether he is ready to represent XenoGamers on it's Servers.
 
This will obviously require the co-operation of the community as well, including those who have had.. Turbulent times with Vector. Simply put, do not [intentionally] harass, instigate, or provoke him into slipping up. It isn't easy to make a change in attitude, so don't [try to] give the guy a hard time. At the very least, try to put aside your differences and give the guy a chance.
 
To clarify, this is all just an opinion. Take it with a grain of salt :coffee:

If you're honestly going to leave over 1 player being unbanned, that just shows where your loyalties are. You clearly don't care about the community as much as you preach if you would leave over a player very harshly (and unjustly, given the lack of evidence) banned no longer being banned then do us all a favor and leave now anyway. thanks. :)
 
In the end, the decision is with the CLs, regardless of what the poll says. But I want to make sure they read the above, because that's the cold hard truth of the matter. [uSERGROUP=23]@Community Leader[/uSERGROUP]

All of these +1 should be unbanned do not know the vector on tf2. He makes EVERYONE uncomfortable. He has caused multiple people to leave and never comeback and if any of you saw this, you would want him permed from everything. Do you want positive change?

I've got quite a bit to say on this topic. I'll post something later, I'm at work right now and probably shouldn't be texting lol. Just don't go locking this thread anytime soon. :)

Dang this thread is hella funny. Some of the people who wanted him to stay banned previously stated he kept the servers alive on his own.
 
Anyways I don't have a lot to say right now, but he probably shouldn't have been permed randomly out of the blue.

Posted this in the convo but wanted it to be made clear.
 
The reason we have no evidence is because we've all been ignoring him for so long. Playing on the server with him is so tiresome that we just don't do it anymore, even to get evidence for his removal.
 
If and when he gets unbanned though, all of that changes.
 
We've tried warning him inside of the division multiple times (one on one teamspeak chat in a locked channel with higher ups of the div). He was demoted for this type of behavior. I don't know what the CLs count as a warning, but he has way more than one.
 
He's had enough warnings, and if this goes through we're really only left with one course of action.
 
His every word on the servers will be recorded, every conversation screenshotted. We don't have evidence, so we're going to get some. If he changed then good, nothing to worry about. But does anyone that knows vector, either from CSS or TF2, honestly think he's going to change?
 
I'm guessing probably not. And with every action and word documented, he's going to have two choices: change or actually be permed. I wonder which he'll choose.

You know, if you see somebody being disrespectful like this, you can ban them before it gets out of control? Do you not know how to use admin powers? If he keeps doing it, extend the ban.
+1 for unban. It's not his fault you allowed him to continue this behavior without repercussion. Now, he should still learn that this isn't OK. Maybe change it to a week ban. Otherwise, ban him if he gets out of control, or just report him to a higher up and let them take care if it. A few warnings with no temp. bans then perm for messing around is WAAAY to harsh. I even looked at the bans to make sure. Most of the bans are @diabeetus saying "beef flaps" and are for 10 minutes on CSS, not even TF2. There's only two for TF2, and they were back in 2013.
 
Do you want a guide on how to be a big boy too? How to change your own underwear so mommy doesn't have to?
 
This circlejerk is actually disgusting. 20+ members would leave if ONE person was banned? Good riddance. The point of being an admin is to be unbiased and moderate the servers without having an opinion, negative or positive, about the people you're watching over. This proves if anything that most of the TF2 division is too immature if they leave because one bad man says bad things. Boo Hoo. Get over it. You're supposed to be the mature one, not the one crying over it.

I read a few of these posts, and they made me want to throw myself off a cliff, so I'm skipping the rest and posting.
 
Just because ONE person that you don't like gets unbanned, you're going to completely leave? Are you 3 years old?
 
This is what that would show about you if you leave:
 
1. You aren't mature enough to settle your differences, just talk to the person. If they still don't change? JUST AVOID THEM. He joins the server? Leave. Joins your TS channel? Leave, or blacklist him. Ignore him on forums, block on steam. You don't even need to be around or converse with him.
 
2. If you will leave because 1 person you don't like is unbanned, you don't care for xG. Pretty much all of the friends I had when I first joined xG are gone, though I have a few newer ones, it still sucks. I still didn't leave.
 
Anyway, I +1 his unban because the only reason a lot of these people are -1ing is because he's "hewt their feewins". Maybe keep a short ban on him, just not perm.
 
 
ALSO I saw in a post that like"3 dls would leave" ohohoh, like 3 higher ups don't like him? I wonder why he's on tier 1 on the list...

-1 for unban.
CL's hopefully will read the rant I posted and hopefully re-read what my higher-up's have posted: Showing that this is a very serious decision. This can go 2 ways: Vector stays banned and server population/community on the servers get better. -OR- Vector gets un-banned and LOTS of people leave. Along with all the higher-ups, staff and members. The division will fall. I hope @CL's will make the right decision.
Also unban Iggy if you unban Vector that's just fucking unfair.

I am one of those who will leave if vector is unbanned for multiple reasons. I used to respect vector as a "random" on TGH but now he is just someone i would rather never see again. He is disrespectful, has told people to kill themselves, and overall a horrible representative of the Xeno Gamers clan. Yes, his ban does seem a bit harsh but in all honestly the ban was for the better for the servers and the community. His unban will just prove 1 of 2 things.
 
1. The CL's want to keep an oldfag just because he has been here awhile.
 
2. The CL's think the ban was harsh not not fair.

-1 would be a bystander laughing at deaths of people who don't learn from their mistakes again.

I do have a buddy who met his girlfriend of a few years on our servers, (they're moving in together soon I believe) and Vector ran both of them away from our TGH server.

"they shouldn't be unbanned because they were mean to me" Jesus christ grow up.

> Says this thread is exploding his notifications
> Is the one spamming the thread

He doesn't keep the server alive on his own. Also liking forge isn't an xG rule (obviously), but the key is how you handle your views towards other people. Coming right out and telling someone to kill themselves because "no one likes them" is not mature and not acceptable.

-1 when you essentially keep a server alive on your own and work hard to make a server what it is you can have fun with your job. The people he bans deserve it. They ARE breaking the rules.does he need to be such a dick about it? Obviously no, but vector is probably one of the better admins so it doesn't really matter. And he won't ban someone until they break the rules. Also, how is him making fun of you in shoutbox admin abuse? Is liking forge an xG rule now? Bring your concerns about his conduct on the servers here, your not having thick enough skin to take somebody not liking you isn't a bannable offense, stop whining, sorry your feelings were hurt. So sad.