Disable random crits for all weapons except melee on trade servers?

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

Plugin here: GitHub - fwdcp/random-melee-crits: A plugin for SourceMod that disables random crits on all weapons except for melee weapons.

 

So here I was, watching a Sirky video, when I was reminded of one of his balancing suggestions.

I thought to myself, "Hey, I wonder if a plug-in actually exists for this?" when lo and behold...

 

Anyway, I was looking for some kind of compromise. Random crits benefit classes such as Soldier and Demo way more than other classes, to the point of it being stupid, but even classes with a shotgun sometimes get the random benefit of being able to snipe someone for 180 damage a mile away or something. In short, random crits on guns are stupid, you literally just randomly deal more damage occasionally for no reason. Take it from someone who spawncamps frequently, allowing me to just shoot a rocket and randomly deal three times it's normal damage in a wide radius is actually stupid.

 

When I discussed this with people like Shwoosh however, he talked about how he would miss stupid stuff like stickyjumping into someone with a pan and """market-gardenering""" them. At the time I agreed, I assumed random crits were just the price we had to pay for really stupid fun stuff like escape-plan battles and medic-chaining. There's also significant risk in fishing for a crit with a melee weapon, as melee tends to be the absolute worst weapon slot in the game, having limited range and windup, so you actually are trading potential safety in using your gun for the ability to random crit.

 

I think this plug in would satisfy both sides. Soldiers and Demos would no longer be able to wipe your team in spawn by shooting one lucky rocket or sticky, but at the same time we'd preserve the ability to do things like ubersaw critting and the "market pardner".

 

Thoughts?

[hongkongatron 384]

its been a while since the last thread was made for this, +1

Edited September 22, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[yesstergi 75]

yeah that sounds good +1

[OneGlove 54]

what the heck no -1

Random crits benefit classes such as Soldier and Demo way more than other classes, to the point of it being stupid,

this is understandable, as it does happen, but then you say

 

but even classes with a shotgun sometimes get the random benefit of being able to snipe someone for 180 damage a mile away or something.

that just kind of makes that argument irrelevant. if you want crits taken away, and say it "only for specific op classes" not only is that very situational but also biased.

 

There's also significant risk in fishing for a crit with a melee weapon, as melee tends to be the absolute worst weapon slot in the game, having limited range and windup, so you actually are trading potential safety in using your gun for the ability to random crit.

while your backup is true, melee is not always the worst weapon in the game, and if you are fishing for crits instead of battling normally then you aren't playing the game properly. same for disabling crits but anywho,

 

Soldiers and Demos would no longer be able to wipe your team in spawn by shooting one lucky rocket or sticky, but at the same time we'd preserve the ability to do things like ubersaw critting and the "market pardner".

see; second and third opposing arguments.

 

Thoughts?

this thread might be seen as a godsend, but honestly this is a futile change for only the people who want specific changes for "muh competition".

Edited September 22, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

what the heck no -1

 

this is understandable, as it does happen, but then you say

Yes, believe it or not, weapons that have falloff as their main method of lowing ranged damage, are actually very good when you triple the total damage, and then apply no falloff, as it's a single projectile that will go exactly where you aim it with no random spread as well as a blast radius.

 

that just kind of makes that argument irrelevant. if you want crits taken away, and say it "only for specific op classes" not only is that very situational but also biased.

My second statement has no such effect on my argument. Saying "Random crits are really really good on these classes, and are only pretty good on these classes" doesn't invalidate the fact that they work more in the favor of some classes than others, even if they can overall benefit all. This is also ignoring the fact that some classes such as sniper have no chance for a random crit on their primary (and most-used) weapon.

while your backup is true, melee is not always the worst weapon in the game, and if you are fishing for crits instead of battling normally then you aren't playing the game properly. same for disabling crits but anywho,

Melee is always the worst weapon due to inconsistent hitreg, rather low damage output (generally 65), and windup time. Why would you ever use melee to deal 65 when almost every other primary in the game can deal hundreds of damage at the same range? Melee is either meant to be a last-resort when you run out of ammo (which is ideally never if you play well), is used as a utility (in cases such as the escape plan and disciplinary action), or finally, is a powerful hat-trick designed to surprise unaware enemies (like the market gardener, spy's knife, etc.).It is however almost never the ideal way to combat most enemies, and in cases where it's used as such, it tends to result in a one-trick pony who immediately dies (spy) or just a bad loadout (full demoknight, trolldier). What this has to do with my argument is beyond me, it seems like a red herring, but eh.

And people can fish for melee crits due to the way damage increases the chance to crit and whatnot, whether or not it's the ideal way to play is irrelevant. The game is properly played without crits as evidenced by every single LAN tournament to ever happen in existence as well as Valve's comp mode.

 

If you really want this to stand

 

see; second and third opposing arguments.

 

 

this thread might be seen as a godsend, but honestly this is a futile change for only the people who want specific changes for "muh competition".

 

Ya, believe it or not I'd prefer to have fights that are actually fair on the servers that are about 98% DM and 2% people actually trading. People other than I tend to see melee crits as "more fun" than crits from a ranged weapon (as evidenced by the amount of complaining you see when you kill someone with a ranged weapon). Ideally I'd like to remove all crits but we've had votes on such before and they've failed, so this is me trying for a compromise. Melee is ineffective anyway, so if people really think critting some idiot with a wrench is fun, whatever they can have it, but I'd still like to try and remove the more egregious elements of the mechanic.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

In my opinion, I don't think they should be removed. Basically, I think trade servers are just for fun/not working towards an objective, especially if you aren't trading so random crits aren't really a huge issue for trade servers. Maybe the one thing you could do is add some sort of duel functionality for people who actively want to 1v1 each other pure skill, but that's for a different thread.

 

Also regarding the spawn wipe issue, I don't think removing random crits would do anything tangible to reduce it. The rate of getting rolls from RTD such as infinite ammo, toxic, homing rockets, etc. Is pretty common so even if random crits were removed, that would still be an issue unless the whole of rtd was addressed. Finally, dying a random crit - especially in a spawn camp - is not a big deal due to the fact that there is an instant respawn. I get that dying from a random crit is frustrating, but its not like you are forced to wait 15 second before you can play again.

 

Overall though it's not a huge deal IMO so it wouldn't really matter that much if they were removed or kept for most people I believe.

That's fine, I realize it is a trade server so not everyone cares, but there was enough of a consensus among people I'd talked with, so I figured it was worth bringing up.

[Krampus 42]

+1 for it's removal, it may be a trade server and all but I'd just prefer to not have solly's with 4 health one shot me with a random crocket and make me cry :(

[ael_fjordling 15]

+1 A suitable compromise, I like it.

[Moosty 148]

-1 I don't want to get deep into it or pick apart individual points, I just think it's a trade server and meant be to random and inconsistent, as tf2 in general is meant to be. I guess I just don't see the appeal of making the experience arbitrary and exactly the same for everyone outside of competitive. To me it seems like smogon in pokemon, which if you don't know is a community ruleset for playing pokemon that got so convoluted and arbitrarily against RNG that it just lost the plot and started sucking.

 

Honestly tf2 and the community has changed alot since rotation history failed, and us trying a competitive server with no random crits and cool maps could actually work in a valve server-less community, I'd rather see us pop it onto rotation or start it's own server rather than change our trade servers this much.

 

 

Ps. And as people have stated, RTD is equally bad RNG wise. If we are keeping that I don't see what the difference is between running around a corner and dying to toxic and running around a corner and dying to a random crit.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[LAN_Megalodon 195]

-1 I don't want to get deep into it or pick apart individual points, I just think it's a trade server and meant be to random and inconsistent, as tf2 in general is meant to be. I guess I just don't see the appeal of making the experience arbitrary and exactly the same for everyone outside of competitive. To me it seems like smogon in pokemon, which if you don't know is a community ruleset for playing pokemon that got so convoluted and arbitrarily against RNG that it just lost the plot and started sucking.

 

Honestly tf2 and the community has changed alot since rotation history failed, and us trying a competitive server with no random crits and cool maps could actually work in a valve server-less community, I'd rather see us pop it onto rotation or start it's own server rather than change our trade servers this much.

 

 

Ps. And as people have stated, RTD is equally bad RNG wise. If we are keeping that I don't see what the difference is between running around a corner and dying to toxic and running around a corner and dying to a random crit.

RTD's awful and I'd love to start a vote to remove it, the thing is I pick my battles and I'm not going to start a vote for something that probably won't change. RTD is seen as fun by a majority of players because of the sheer ridiculousness of a 1000+ health Scout, a Soldier shooting homing missiles into the sky, or a Demo just constantly lobbing 'nades non-stop like a machine gun. RTD also has significant negative rolls, giving the use of it a proper downside, as opposed to you know, just randomly shooting and doing standard damage or more. You are also warned through the chat system when someone has rolled the dice or has an RTD effect, as opposed to, you know, just instantly dying to a random crit, which makes it leagues more fun.

 

Random crits differ from the RTD plug in because you don't witness anything that's so ridiculous that it's funny, you just insta-die, hence people tending to like them much less than the RTD plug in. I pretty much gathered this consensus, found I shared it with about 50% of other players, and then made a vote here.

 

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On an unrelated note, now I'm going to spaz out because I'm a pretty big fan of Smogon OU. Skip this segment if you don't care.

 

The Smogon community had to develop clauses for a game-mode that basically sees no attention and isn't balanced for by the company that make the games (Singles, 6v6, whereas Gamefreak's official mode is VGC, aka Doubles, or pick 6 bring 4, 4v4).

 

There are 6 clauses, one of which is used in official play (VGC). Compare this to the offical VGC ruleset, which is a fucking 8 page pdf.

The clauses are as follows:

Species Clause - You may not have two Pokemon of the same dex number.

Sleep Clause - You may not put more than one of your opponent's Pokemon to sleep during a match. (Because sleep turns are entirely random and rng isn't fun.)

Evasion Clause - Pokemon may not have either Double Team or Minimize in it's moveset. (Because winning a match by flipping a coin isn't fun, or rewarding, or -- Hey wait a minute that sounds a lot like it could be applicable to random crits within the game TF2, wowzers!!)

OHKO Clause - No moves that automatically one hit K.O. (Due to issues with lock-on, which would ensure OHKO moves always land.)

Moody Clause - No Pokemon can have the ability Moody. (See both "rng isn't fun" and "winning matches by flipping coins isn't rewarding"...)

Endless Battle Clause - A player cannot intentionally prevent the opponent from being able to end the game without forfeiting, or essentially forcing the opponent to forfeit or suffer an endless battle. (Yes, there are ways to do this, look up "Funbro")

 

Some tiers have additional rules, although they're not much, OU has three additional fairly simple rules:

The ability Arena Trap is banned (Switching is integral to singles.)

The ability Shadow Tag is banned (See arena trap.)

The move Baton Pass is banned (Voted by players to be too over-centralizing.)

 

There's also the basic principle that you can't use any Pokemon residing within a tier above the one you're currently playing in, (no Ubers in OU, etc. etc.) you can use any ones below your tier however. Pokemon each reside in a tier based on their usage (a Pokémon is the 'Over Used' tier if a typical competitive player is more than 50% likely to encounter that Pokemon at least once in a given day of playing, etc.) Bans within the OU tier are decided upon by the community after a specific Pokemon (or moves, or ability, etc.) is found to be over-centralizing by a council of some of the top players. As long as you're high enough ranking from just playing on the regular old ladder, you can vote on most bans that aren't obviously needed and end up as landslide victories.

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In short, RNG is not enjoyable. Tied games during season one of Overwatch were not enjoyable, and whoever won didn't do so out of playing better. Being unable to hit a move in a Pokemon battle isn't enjoyable, and the person evading isn't really doing so out of skill. Being random crit and instantly dying in the game Team Fortress 2 isn't enjoyable, and the person critting you hasn't planned or done anything to deserve it.

If people really found games of rng to be that enjoyable we'd all sit around flipping coins over and over rather than playing videogames and trying to develop some degree of skill in them.

This isn't about fostering a "non-casual environment" on the trade servers or whatever, it's about fostering a fun one.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[virr 808]

Since this is a fairly major change, the topic in question will be taken into discussion internally for a little bit. We'll get back to you guys within a week or so. Thank you for the thread!

 

~closed

[virr 808]

Update: Crits have been disabled for all weapons that aren't melee on TGH and Pokemon Trade.