NitNat 239 Posted July 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, OneGlove said: it is more "harmful" than other exploits, meaning it has the potential to be game ruining. Not saying that is the case now, but if it evolves into something worse, there will be worse consequences There isn’t a way for the charge to be harmful considering it’s mostly done in the farthest corner of spawns, and that anyone is physically able to walk away or simply move slightly to hear. There is literally no way for it to stem something worse since it’s pretty cut and dry. There is also no way for it to be game ruining since majority of players do not even load in for the full 20 seconds and the map resets everyone back to spawn and wasd frozen. The chance of something happening in that time span is slim to none, you can’t even finish any of the surf maps in that time. 1 1 OneGlove and YeEternalTuna reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tatost 604 Posted July 9, 2018 I mean, if it's an exploit, should you not warn the player who's doing it? this thread is kind of stupid, I didn't read anything except for the OP's post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OneGlove 54 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) I guess I should also say that while your points are correct, there isn't a full reason for us to not remove a minor annoyance. Why should we keep an annoyance in the servers if its annoying? 10 minutes ago, NitNat said: There isn’t a way for the charge to be harmful considering it’s mostly done in the farthest corner of spawns, and that anyone is physically able to walk away or simply move slightly to hear. There is literally no way for it to stem something worse since it’s pretty cut and dry. There is also no way for it to be game ruining since majority of players do not even load in for the full 20 seconds and the map resets everyone back to spawn and wasd frozen. The chance of something happening in that time span is slim to none, you can’t even finish any of the surf maps in that time. If there is no real benefit to the exploit, then why even bother defending it? There is no benefit I can see other than "lol lets trigger people by being loud". The only reason I see for you arguing to keep this functioning is for the sake of arguing. Edited July 9, 2018 by OneGlove more info (see edit history) 1 2 YeEternalTuna, SegFault and Kypari reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LAN_Megalodon 195 Posted July 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, OneGlove said: If there is no real benefit to the exploit, then why even bother defending it? There is no benefit I can see other than "lol lets trigger people by being loud". The only reason I see for you arguing to keep this functioning is for the sake of arguing. Idk, it makes a vaguely boring time period more interesting and there's no real complaint other than "it's loud". There's not even really an exploit unless you're also willing to count people equipping the pan on scout and making as much noise as humanly possible an "exploit". If we really stretch the limits of believability you might be able to beat a short surf map in the 20 seconds if you giga-trimp the entire way, but even then it's a moot point because everything resets and you lose any bonus for doing so. 1 YeEternalTuna reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tatost 604 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, OneGlove said: If there is no real benefit to the exploit, then why even bother defending it? There is no benefit I can see other than "lol lets trigger people by being loud". The only reason I see for you arguing to keep this functioning is for the sake of arguing. There's nothing wrong with it either, it's not done to trigger people. The "exploit" has been around for a while, this isn't new. IMO it's kind of funny to have a Demoman screaming and running into a wall. The only argument you have for removing AIA is "I want to speak in these first 30 seconds even though half of the server hasn't even joined in yet" -1 for AIA to be removed I bet you guys are the type of people to go to a rock concert and then complain that it's "too loud" Edited July 9, 2018 by Tatost (see edit history) 1 1 Kypari and YeEternalTuna reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OneGlove 54 Posted July 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, LAN_Megalodon said: Idk, it makes a vaguely boring time period more interesting and there's no real complaint other than "it's loud". If your version of interesting is anything except normality then yes, I agree. Otherwise, because its a simple fix and no reason to keep it in other than the minority wanting it, why not remove it? 7 minutes ago, Tatost said: I bet you guys are the type of people to go to a rock concert and then complain that it's "too loud" I agree, 100%. Except, there's not a correspondence between an expected loudness and an unexpected disruption of peace. The disruption of the peace is a real life law, though that does not correlate. 1 1 2 YeEternalTuna, Kypari, SegFault and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SegFault 329 Posted July 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tatost said: I mean, if it's an exploit, should you not warn the player who's doing it? this thread is kind of stupid, I didn't read anything except for the OP's post. Its pretty hard to locate who exactly is doing it (due to teams, time spent loading in and unable to look around, multiple demo's exploiting this, etc.) most of the time so its hard to warn people as far as i'm aware. Unless I'm mistaken, voice chat and game sound are in a mono channel with each other so its hard to verbally warn players (as pointed out earlier in the original post) due to the sound going over the same channel at a similar volume. A text warning is possible but as stated at the top of this reply, its hard to locate the players doing it so its inherently hard to pinpoint and address and if it is addressed/punished it could open up a conflict where players could argue "why didn't the X team's demo get in trouble for it???" which is a fair argument and IMO just puts the staff in a poopty position. 10 minutes ago, Tatost said: I bet you guys are the type of people to go to a rock concert and then complain that it's "too loud" also I don't see the point of taking personal shots at people. I made this as a serious thread so please keep relevant to the servers, not the people voicing their thoughts on the matter 1 1 OneGlove and Tatost reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kypari 579 Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Tatost said: There's nothing wrong with it either, it's not done to trigger people. The "exploit" has been around for a while, this isn't new. IMO it's kind of funny to have a Demoman screaming and running into a wall. The only argument you have for removing AIA is "I want to speak in these first 30 seconds even though half of the server hasn't even joined in yet" "there's nothing wrong with it except this problem" I find it funny too but if people are getting annoyed about it, clearly something needs to be done about it. The spawns on surf are next to each other and everyone who has connected (which from what I've seen is quite a portion of people) can't talk on mic because of something really pointless and small. Not even just being unable to talk, clearly people find it annoying as well Edited July 9, 2018 by Kypari (see edit history) 1 1 SyrixCoffeeWolf and Tatost reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NitNat 239 Posted July 9, 2018 What people still don't seem to grasp is that you are able to walk away. If it annoys someone to the point where they feel the need to cry they arent bound to that platform, they can move. It's not killing anyone, it's not disrupting balance, it's NOT an exploit, it's just noise. That's it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OneGlove 54 Posted July 9, 2018 Just now, NitNat said: What people still don't seem to grasp is that you are able to walk away. If it annoys someone to the point where they feel the need to cry they arent bound to that platform, they can move. It's not killing anyone, it's not disrupting balance, it's NOT an exploit, it's just noise. That's it. 17 minutes ago, OneGlove said: Otherwise, because its a simple fix and no reason to keep it in other than the minority wanting it, why not remove it? 1 1 SegFault and YeEternalTuna reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tatost 604 Posted July 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, OneGlove said: Otherwise, because its a simple fix and no reason to keep it in other than the minority wanting it, why not remove it? you're actually in the minority, I've counted seven people against removal and five people supporting removal. 7 minutes ago, Kypari said: if people are getting annoyed about it, clearly something needs to be done about it. where was this earlier wtf Just like Nit said, you can walk away from the spawn, nothing is keeping you there. Just drop down on top of a ramp or something. 20 minutes ago, Johny3Tears said: also I don't see the point of taking personal shots at people. It's just a joke, dude. One joke in a serious thread isn't the end of the world, not to mention that I was completely serious just above that. It's really nothing to get upset about. 21 minutes ago, Johny3Tears said: Its pretty hard to locate who exactly is doing it (due to teams, time spent loading in and unable to look around, multiple demo's exploiting this, etc.) most of the time so its hard to warn people as far as i'm aware. Unless I'm mistaken, voice chat and game sound are in a mono channel with each other so its hard to verbally warn players (as pointed out earlier in the original post) due to the sound going over the same channel at a similar volume. A text warning is possible but as stated at the top of this reply, its hard to locate the players doing it so its inherently hard to pinpoint and address and if it is addressed/punished it could open up a conflict where players could argue "why didn't the X team's demo get in trouble for it???" which is a fair argument and IMO just puts the staff in a poopty position. Spectator exists. Just quickly cycle through the players and find out who's doing it. It's not that big of a problem IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SegFault 329 Posted July 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, NitNat said: What people still don't seem to grasp is that you are able to walk away. If it annoys someone to the point where they feel the need to cry they arent bound to that platform, they can move. It's not killing anyone, it's not disrupting balance, it's NOT an exploit, it's just noise. That's it. The definition of an exploit is a tool or action designed to take advantage of a feature of a system that is not defined by its intended use. I don't see how this is not an exploit, if you could enlighten me I would appreciate it because I may just be missing something. And you seem to be missing my point still that people are bound to that platform for enough time to get upset. Now, even if this is being too sensitive to it, we are a community server. I want to draw attention to that because with how I see it, to thrive as a clan and as a family of servers, it is then in our best interests to do what best appeases the community. Keeping the demo charge is at best a neutral trait for the server unless people are saying "Hey, we should go to those xG servers for the first 30 seconds of the map to demo charge into a corner", and in most other ways just a negative trait if people aren't happy about it. We rely on the community for funding, population, and general environment. TLDR/Seg is stupid and doesn't make sense: We don't loose anything in the grand scheme of things by disabling demo charge AIA but if we don't, we possibly run the risk of loosing server population from the players that are as you said - crying - about it 1 1 1 Tatost, OneGlove and YeEternalTuna reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SegFault 329 Posted July 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, Tatost said: It's just a joke, dude. One joke in a serious thread isn't the end of the world, not to mention that I was completely serious just above that. It's really nothing to get upset about. I think we've all seen how quickly a thread can derail from an inflammatory joke. I'm just trying to prevent it from happening. 7 minutes ago, Tatost said: Spectator exists. Just quickly cycle through the players and find out who's doing it. It's not that big of a problem IMO. That's true, but not always practical to do with time constraints. That being said, its still and exploit, so why not just fix the exploit and just leave the other AIA features in then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NitNat 239 Posted July 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Johny3Tears said: We rely on the community for funding, population, and general environment. TLDR/Seg is stupid and doesn't make sense: We don't loose anything in the grand scheme of things by disabling demo charge AIA but if we don't, we possibly run the risk of loosing server population from the players that are as you said - crying - about it There a actual examples on exploitation on surf, like abusing the low grav in certain maps like crazyfrog, that's actual exploiting because it's able to give you an advantage over the map or players. The charging has no benefit besides just being silly for 20 seconds. It's not harmful, it's not useful, it's just simple fun. Also trying to claim that people will leave after that's done is a far reach. Surf is one of the most populated tf2 servers next to tgh. Plus what I mean for crying about is someone saying "that's loud" when they are standing basically in the corner where the demos are. No one ever actually leaves or cries about it once the round actually starts. 1 YeEternalTuna reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tatost 604 Posted July 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Johny3Tears said: That's true, but not always practical to do with time constraints. That being said, its still and exploit, so why not just fix the exploit and just leave the other AIA features in then? By fixing you mean disabling shields during AIA? Disabling charging isn't possible unless you blacklist the items, but you can change the distance the charge goes AFAIK. They did this on JB, and it fixed the problem with charging on that server, but it won't really work too well for surf. While the distance is decreased, the charge still exists, you can still hear all of the sound queues (screaming, bashing, etc.). If you had another idea for fixing the problem without removing AIA, I'm sure we can all agree on something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites