Scootaloo

To start things off, none of the CL's want Vector unbanned (as in, unbanned without any punishment). To try and claim that we want him unbanned to both the community as a whole and to Silence is so incredibly dishonest and deceitful that I'm honestly shocked. The discussion with regard to Vector's condition was very clearly still ongoing, and as someone who was actively involved in the conversation regarding Vector's unban I would expect for you (@metalslug53) to know that. There wasn't even close to there being a consensus between the CL's felt would be the proper course of action, and to claim otherwise simply is wrong. Yes, Penguin, Lee and I felt that Vector's permanent ban was too harsh, but at no point did we ever claim to want Vector to be unbanned. The three of us clearly voiced that we felt that Vector deserved a punishment, but none of us had agreed (at that point) as to what the length of that punishment would be. The closest thing to a consensus that we came to was that (A) Vector should receive a slightly less severe ban (on the order of a couple of months, as previously mentioned), and (B) that when this ban ran out that Vector would be under and incredibly strict probationary period (as initially proposed by Moosty and agreed to by Scootaloo) and that if he demonstrated any of the qualities for which he was previously banned for that he would be permanently banned, no questions asked. Interestingly enough, this initial "compromise" is nearly identical to the compromise currently being worked out (proposed by DrLee, here's what it is, if anyone is interested).

 

 

Also, I really don't want to address the big ole' steaming pile of fudge that is people threatening to leave the clan if Vector was unbanned. If your attachment to the community is so fickle that even the prospect of having someone on the server who has a negative impact on the server is enough to make you leave, then I really just don't know what to say. Leaving the clan simply because you think that we're making a decision which will have a negative impact on our community doesn't do diddly. In fact, it just makes the clan's condition even worse. If you really care about the well-being of this clan, prove to me that my decision was a mistake. Prove to me that my train of thought is completely bonkers. If Vector truly is as terrible of an influence as everyone says (and I'm not saying that he isn't), it really shouldn't be too hard to gather some actual evidence against him other than word-of-mouth. I have no problem with voicing issues about the decisions of higher-ups, but threatening to leave because you think we're making the wrong decision is essentially the equivalent of taking your ball and going home.

Allow me to make a public apology. My post was not very well worded, as I should have stated that we were discussing the possibility of Vector being unbanned. The way I wrote it, it made it seem as if we had decided that Vector was indeed returning. That was in bad wording on my part. Sorry to have put that connotation on you.

I also want to apologize for only receiving half of the truth. I WAS under the assumption that a few of the CLs (None in particular really, just a few of you) were in support of unbanning Vector. It was only until later when I re-read through the entire conversation that I realized that nowhere was it proposed to unban him completely. I allowed myself to jump to that conclusion due to the hot passions that were heavy last night in the Teamspeak channel. So, to you and the other @Community Leaders, I do apologize for having that be conveyed.

You guys rock at what you do. I know our voices are not unheard. I know you all have the best intentions in mind when making these huge decisions. I don't want to step on toes or make it perceived that I believe you guys are doing anything ill for the group. I believe the exact opposite.

The threats of people leaving the clan due to Vector's unbanning, I believe, were also probably in part to the misconception that we were deliberating completely unbanning Vector and having him return immediately. You can probably understand how that might make a few people upset. But, I think that better understanding on our parts would have helped avoid that miscommunication.

So, to you all, I apologize. I will be diligent and more attentive in these future discussions, and work towards conveying my messages in a more clear manner.

Not gonna lie ASock. I ignored you a long time ago, but I unignored you to read what you had to say here.

It takes a lot of humility for someone to stand up and admit their faults. Anyone who can do that is considered a pretty down-to-earth guy in my books.

Not ALL CLs are wanting him unbanned. Just saying, don't buttume just because we all have the position that we believe the same.

You're right. Sorry about that. I'll address that and correct it.

I personally am caught in between a rock and a hard place in this dilemma.

On one hand, I once considered Vector a friend. Like others, I have seen his declining attitude and demeanor, but he has never really done anything to me PERSONALLY that would make me want to never speak to him again. I do see how his mannerisms are hurtful and toxic, so I understand the outcry to keep him banned. I feel that it's for the better of the clan that he stays banned, but at the same time, I don't want to be the guy to make that decision. Luckily for me, I don't seem to be alone in feeling this way.

Also, I'm stuck in the position that if Vector DOES get unbanned, practically ALL of the people I call friends in this clan will leave. Where would that leave me? Being one of the only higher-up staff that remains after a mass walk-out? Can't say that sounds too appeasing to me, to be completely honest.

If I had to make the choice, I'd say to keep him Permanently banned from all servers and services, then in a couple of months, unban him from forums to give him a chance to make a new Member Request. IF he can prove he has changed, that is.

Before anyone gets all up-in-arms about me doing this, I have the approval from our fearless leader.

As many of you have already heard, there are rumors floating around about Vector possibly being unbanned from all xG servers and services. I am here to put those rumors to rest. Those rumors are all true. We are currently working to find a suitable solution to this scenario.

SOME of the CLs believe that Vector was unjustly banned because he has only received a single forum warning for his actions. They feel that his Permanent Ban was too harsh of a move. They think that it is unfair that he was banned and does not receive a chance to submit a Ban Protest.

So, when the word got out that he was being unbanned, MANY MEMBERS have openly stated that they would leave the clan if he is indeed unbanned and makes a return. The number of members and staff is impressively high.

So, Silence requested a poll be made so the community could voice their opinion. Should we unban Vector, or keep him away? Is his presence good or bad for the whole of xG?

Please voice your opinion by voting. Also, leave any comments (In a respectful way) below. I'll have it know that I will not tolerate this thread turning into a shitstorm. Any disrespectful comments will be removed and your forum account will receive a ban for an undisclosed amount of time Thank you.

I don't think this warrants a removal of powers, or should even apply to his server powers, so -1 on removal of powers.

 

I will also say that a forum warning or short ban is founded in this case.

 

 

Since we're all being open and honest now though, I will say the concerns in this thread are valid. @Kypari , some of these issues do affect you and how you do your job on the servers. You have always done a good job as a moderator, and have never given me, or the previous tf2 higher ups, any reason to remove your powers. Still though, you've been mod for probably longer than any of our other mods, and still haven't been promoted. You do your job as mod well, but these attitude issues, most minor, some major, are the reason you've stayed just mod. You have a chance for improvement here, it doesn't help you, the division, or the clan if you disregard the valid criticisms in this thread.

This.

@Rhododendron

Oh hot damn. It's Bonerino again!

Good to see you man! We'll get this thread closed in 24 hours and you can put your tags back on tomorrow! Welcome back! ^-^

I'm Done. | Xeno Gamers

Sorry Vaporeon, but you left on the 4th of April. Per our rules for member resubmission, you must wait a minimum of thirty days before you can reapply, as per the rules posted in the Member Submission forum, which state:

If you have left or got kicked out of xG, and are allowed to re-apply, you must have

- 20 vouches

- A Division Leader from the respective division to agree on your return 01/13/14

- waited a month minimum from the day you have quit/left xG

20/11/2012

Sadly, these +1s are invalid. You'll have to resubmit your post on the 4th of May and no sooner.

That being said, you DO have my welcome back, (As well as Moosty's and Rejects' Welcomes too, it seems) and I'll even go so far and let you use the +1s you've already gotten in this thread when you do resubmit your Member Submission. It seems you've already amassed 12 +1s, meaning you'll only need 8 more. (I don't think anyone will mind if we give you at least that much leeway.)

Good to have you back. We will officiate it when you resubmit on May 4th. Thread closed.

Wasting your 1000th post makes me cry inside. Right @Hachi?

It makes me all warm and giddy to see that nobody really seems to have any issues with me. That's good, I suppose.

I, on the flip side, don't really have any issues with any of you either. Always been pretty straightforward with my problems if they ever popped up. I'm one of those personalities that knows when shit needs to be done, and is quick to please once I'm sure everything that NEEDS to be handled has been handled.

If I were to come up with an issue that I do currently have, I think it's with moderation as a whole. There are times when we can assess a situation on a server and let things just play out while everyone is being dumb and having fun. Such examples are when a server is full of xG members and we are just having a hayday, being stupid and annoying and just basically having a good time with one another. HOWEVER, while we have been known to get a bit carried away, I think we need to learn when we've hit our limit. Sure, it's important to have fun with each other on the servers, but we also must maintain a level of professionalism and control. At the end of the day, our staff isn't here to have fun, but to ensure the server rules are being administered so our patrons are having fun.

My number one goal as of now is to ensure that ALL of our staff know the ins and outs of our rules and can correctly enforce those rules when the time comes to enforce them. I don't necessarily want to turn into a rules Nazi, but I do want our staff to be able to discern the difference between subtle nuances that are coming about from everyone having a good time and people who are actually breaking the rules.

The biggest instance that comes to mind is the recent events that perspired that involved Moosty and myself in the TGH servers. Moosty was allowing light mic spam and another member basically jumped down his throat for it. Should Moosty have asked the rule breakers to stop? Yes. (And he did.) But from another user's point of view, it had gone on for far too long and he wasn't happy about the length of time that it took Moosty to act upon the offenders.

It's stuff like this that I want to mainly focus on. Not necessarily being the "No Fun Allowed" clan, but knowing the times when the rules should be rigorously enforced and when it's okay to slack a little. We definitely don't want to be so extreme one direction over the other, but we definitely do need to be able to put our foots down when necessary.

That's all I got. You guys are great. Thanks for keeping things so civil.

Some of these tier listings are total bullshit since most are biased, due to personal feelings and grudges towards them.

From what I understand, a rather large number of members and server-goers voted on the people they considered to be toxic to our community. That's where this list came from. The CLs, the DMs, and the other leaders of the clan are in agreement with the list. How exactly is it biased if so many people contributed towards it?

@Vector @GreyIgnis @Gr8_Butt_M8 @BANGINONATRASHCAN @SupremeWolf @Hachi @Bach @GottaGoFast

=(

You want to see some real change around here, then the "reform" needs to start near the top.

Damn. I....um....how do I follow up after this? XD

Really?!? This needs to be written as a rule? Does noone have common sense in this clan?!

 

Doing something like that breaks multiple rules... you can't troll or TK or help the other team.

Sure, it breaks multiple rules, but you'll still get those randoms that don't think it does. Writing a rule specifically addressing the situation is a good way to ensure it doesn't happen.

I'll agree that it's pretty trolly. I'm all for enforcing a rule that teles cannot be in the Miltank area. +1

Thank you @metalslug53, @Bach and @ChickenPanda for the clarification. While I doubt that a situation like this will happen again in the foreseeable future, please let a Community Leader or Silence/Nomulous know before doing something like this. Without the context provided, what Bach did looked (and still kinda does imo) very sketchy and certainly appeared to be deserving of a permanent ban. I understand that this was for educational purposes, but without any context it really does look like Bach was using an alt account to aimbot for abusive/exploitive purposes. Once again, if the need for something like this arises again, use it only as a last resort (e.g. you cannot find any videos/demos of whatever you're looking for) and only after you have notified a Community Leader and/or Silence/Nomulous, and they have approved its use. Also, I have no idea who banned Bach, it certainly wasn't me.

 

Basically, don't do this again.

Noted. =)

Saying this could be another "escape" for hacking in the future is a bad excuse.

Guaranteed, I will be able to identify and ban anyone using LMAOBox in the future. It has benefited us tremendously.

Was there any particular reason he couldn't (buttuming he didn't) ask for permission from Higher-Ups before choosing to utilize a hack (regardless of its intention) for the sake of demonstration? I understand that it wasn't used maliciously and that it was used for "educational" purposes, but with that said: Was there a reason to do it on xG Servers, given the prior knowledge that utilizing hacks in any form is grounds for a Permanent Server ban?

I'd assume it was probably because nobody really thought it'd be THAT big of a deal to demo it for ten minutes, especially since all the staff that were present had no issue with it. It was also during a time in which there were no other randoms on the server. It was literally JUST xG members and staff.

Where else would we have gone to test this out? Some other random server where people WOULD get mad because of the use of a hack? Why subject a different server to those unpleasantries when we could control it in our own spectrum?

You also have to realize that the Dodgeball server was still VERY new. We were in the process of writing up the rules list for it and this was a question someone had. "How do we know if someone is hacking and what do we do about it?" It really isn't something you can describe to be honest. It's easier to understand to watch it in action.

However, I must say, the timing is horrendous with the most recent butt fudge storm appearing. Especially since Bach got involved in that.

Yes, it is. Bach will more than likely have to answer for his actions in that thread. The creation of a new account, the insults, etc etc. But, the actions specifically addressed in this thread are the accusations of the use of hacks. The only time I've known Bach to use a hack was under my supervision.

As I said before, I'll more than happily support any punishment given granted that evidence of these claims is brought forward.

I'm gonna say -1 unless he did it outside of the educational usage.... since I at one point considered installing a wallhack so I could monitor wallhacking (tho the one I considered was designed to only work while spectate)... never did cause i was too afraid of getting vac banned lolol...

 

I believe the spirit of the "no cheating" rule(which is the one that applies to hacking/aimbots) is using such things to cheat, abuse, annoy.... if all he was doing was checking it out so it would be easier to watch out for, I don't feel he should be punished... if anyone has any evidence that he was abusively using it in any way then by all means, share it and I might change my vote on this...

 

If he's evading bans anywhere, ban the other accounts for the same amount of time as per the rules of the clan, and/or possibly extend his bans if it continues to happen.

This.

Then you go on a non xG non populated server, doing it on xG is basicly shitting where you eat. He broke a rule will now face the punishment, just because you wanted it to happen doesnt change the fact you guys did it on xG i dont see why it matters because at the end of the day he hacked on an xG server. He choose to do it, you didnt hold a gun to his head and force him.

I refuse to let him be punished for educating our staff on how to spot and recognize hackers on our servers. It was requested, by our staff, so that we could better understand how the hackers used their tools to gain an advantage in a new server that many of our staff/members hadn't actually even played before. Is hacking against the rules? Yes. Was he given permission to engage the hack? Yes. If you want to pursue a ban based on these actions, you just might have to punish the entire staff that was involved because they were allowing it to happen. Myself included.

That scenario was contained. HOWEVER, as I stated earlier, if any evidence can be brought forward that Bach has been actively using any type of hack recently within our servers, I will fully support any punishment that needs be given. That situation, however, was contained and regulated by myself and many other staff members. It has nothing to do with the claim at hand and it was already handled.

It matters because I requested it. I wanted to know what an aimbotter looked like. As did a few other of our staff to be knowledged in dealing with future hackers.

The aimbotting account was actually more of a self-educating experiment conducted shortly after our Dodgeball server went up. The initial conversation began after a random user was banned from Dodgeball for very obvious hacking, and somebody pointed out that he believed the hack in question was LMAOBox being used. So, Bach did some research and downloaded the program, signed up for a new throwaway account, and hopped onto the servers to mess around with the hack a bit.

We ALL knew that Bach was not trying to use a hack to gain an advantage, but rather to show everyone what the aimbot looked and acted like. It was very informative and we all had a pretty good time with it. Out of the silliness of the situation, I permabanned the alt account so that Bach couldn't use it in the future, and that started the #FreeBobbyWow movement, which is just another stupid inside joke among our TF2 division. Everyone who was involved were all in the Teamspeak channel at the time, and anyone who was there can attest that it was indeed done out of a fun nature, not to be maliciously cheating.

The events that happened in the other thread, I feel, were Bach's attempts to try and get a rile out of the member in question, but he overstepped the line. He has had no serious accusations against him in the past and even served as our DM for quite a long while. I think he just made a poor choice and that he has most likely learned from it, but considering his background with us and that he has never had a REAL serious issue other than what happened the night prior, I cannot comfortably stand behind a Permanent Ban at this point and time. I still have not decided if that is the right course of action given his record with xG. That is, of course, pending that there is no evidence brought against Bach. If someone is reporting the use of aimbotting AFTER his alt was banned from Dodgeball, there should be some evidence presented to back up those claims. If the claims of use of aimbotting can be substantiated, we will have no choice but to act accordingly.

Ugh. I can't "ugh" enough at all of this.

I understand that passions are high and people are mad. I get that. It happens quite often. But it gives no excuse to bring the argument to petty insults and nasty posts. I like to think that we as a clan are above such immaturity, but when it happens, I begin to have my doubts.

I get it. I understand. Whyte is upset because of H0b0's hostility towards Hachi and Dethman. H0b0 is upset because he feels he was wronged in Jailbreak, and his encounters with those involved led to sensitive personal information about him being exposed, which he clearly did not want to be made public knowledge. What's worse is that AFTER this information was made known, some, (not all) of our members who CLEARLY KNOW BETTER begin to harass and insult him because of his lifestyle. This is completely unacceptable. As someone who heavily supports the LGBTQ movement, this REALLY hurts my heart to see happen in the clan that I call family.

I understand that there were threats made. I understand that there were hostile things said, but, as I said above, that in no way gives ANYONE the right to be so cruel and malign. If this didn't end so horribly for H0b0, I wouldn't have been surprised to see an abuse thread made after these events.

Nobody wins here. Absolutely nobody. Sure, H0b0 gets banned based on the threats he made towards other staff, but xG is successful in showing its ass when it went to handle the situation. I'm aware that those who instigated were dealt with, but come on. It NEVER should have came to that.

I'm not advocating that H0b0 acted in the right, because there were things said that clearly shouldn't have been said. But I AM advocating that we as a clan SERIOUSLY need to reevaluate how we handle these kinds of situations. It goes much farther than just the individuals who were directly involved. If you check the shoutbox, the same posts persisted LONG after the thread was closed, and I'm sure people were still chuckling about it even more after.

But don't get me wrong. I'm not frowning at all of you. I do want to take a moment and thank those who were in charge of damage control for acting accordingly. You guys did awesome at making sure this didn't get blown completely out of proportion. Thank you so much for that, at least.

I implore you guys to handle things better in the future, because this was just appalling to read through. I know we push the envelope a lot, but when it comes to a serious issue, we need to learn to straighten the fuck up and handle things in a much more professional manner.

End rant. I'm off to bed.

tl;dr Shit went sour and Scoots doesn't like how people acted after the fact, on BOTH sides.