Admin What-now?

[Forest 309]

Admin Handbook

 

Just wanted to shed some light on this lovely Admin Handbook (click on the Header) that seems to be missing some much-needed love. That is to say, I've noticed an increasing number of Staff banning players with varying time lengths as well as dishing out wrongful Permanent bans on players who are supposedly "hacking" without any sort of evidence or proof to back up the claim. Up until when I stepped down, Staff had always upheld this "unless proven otherwise, give the player the benefit of the doubt" mentality, and it's sad to see that in this case it's becoming more and more apparent that Staff automatically deem a player a 'bad apple' as opposed to the former.

 

Now, I don't want to be a shit-disturber as that isn't my intention; but for the duration of time I've spent here at Xeno Gamers as a Staff Member, I've always tried to do my best to uphold our rules and guidelines. You could call me a 'rule-nazi', though I had always taken great pride in enacting fair and just bans; so if that warrants the rule-nazi title, then so be it.

 

I'm not doubting any Staff's integrity or ability to Moderate, that isn't what I'm getting at here. What I'm just pointing out is that there are certain rules and guidelines that were set in place; albeit a long time ago, when it comes to dishing out punishments. It's just sad to see that those particular rules are either being shrugged off or forgotten, though I'm assuming it's the latter.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to bring this to light, because I don't know if/when it will be brought up at any other point by anyone else.

 

Cheers :coffee:

Edited October 17, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Egossi 1017]

Aren't those extremely outdated?

"Ban Time

You should never use a permanent ban unless it is for the following reasons:

The person broke the rules (hacking, scripting etc).

The person performed a massive freekill and fled.

The person advertised another server (for example their own community server)

The person has made a serious threat against the community or another (ddos, hacking etc)

If the person does not fall into this criteria, they should NOT be getting permanently banned."

I mean if this is what we are supposed to follow then about 98% of TF2 staff have been doing it wrong for the past 3-4 years, this even includes the permanent ban I received in 2014 for the reason being ban evasion

I think you should update the handbook before encouraging us staff members to use it

 

Regardless of that, imo staff should be able to use their common sense when deciding punishments, and if said staff member doesn't have the mental capacity to do so, then they should be demoted.

It doesn't seem very appealing (especially we're somewhat on a staff-shortage) to enforce staff to work like a robot, along with the 20 hour requirement rule (speaking for TF2 div)

@Bello @Goblins @Aegean @Lithium @Owl

Edited October 17, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Lithium 302]

I gotta say, most of the stuff in that thread isn't really relevant or reasonable. I certainly don't expect CS:GO staff to follow this.

An admin must ban him for 240 minutes exactly. Anything above or below is breaking the rules.

This kind of thing is just bizzare. Not every case is the same and they should definitely not be treated the same. I get this is probably meant to address favoritism, but it just doesn't realistically make sense.

 

You should never use a permanent ban unless it is for the following reasons:

The person broke the rules (hacking, scripting etc).

I mean, every punishment is because someone broke the rules.

 

The only thing there that I can sorta agree with is the bans for hacking - evidence is always good, especially in the case of a ban protest, and in most cases staff asks for a second opinion if someone's cheating anyways (unless its like spinbotting or name-change hacks, which is obvious).

 

Regardless of that, imo staff should be able to use their common sense when deciding punishments, and if said staff member doesn't have the mental capacity to do so, then they should be demoted.

Exactly my thoughts on this. We don't promote just anyone to staff, and we certainly don't promote people who wouldn't be able to understand what is acceptable punishments.

[Goblins 580]

As Egossi said, staff should be able to use their common sense when deciding punishments. That is what I've always told people to do when deciding on what to do; just use common sense. And for the most part, the staff does a pretty good job with handling it.

If you've seen me post it before in promo/demo threads, I usually link the "Admin Handbook" to newer staff. I don't want them to literally take everything from that thread and apply it to the servers like the thread states. I want them to use it as a margin as to where the limits are on punishments.

 

Since this thread is correlated with the ban protest thread, the only thing I'd have to agree on is recording demos or having some sort of decent proof. Although, as a person, you don't instantly think to record a demo and then ban the player if they're hacking. You want to punish the player as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Mistakes happen (if said player in that ban protest is actually being truthful), which is why we learn and move on.

[realBelloWaldi 1245]

I really agree with @Goblins, @Egossi and @Lithium.

Mic Spammers

If a mic spammer joins the server and will not stop after a warning, you must mute and then kick him if he does it again. If he rejoins and continues to do this, that is a bannable offence. An admin must ban him for 240 minutes exactly. Anything above or below is breaking the rules.

 

Chat Spam

Chat spamming will only result in a gag. If they continue after the round changes, that is a kick. If they still continue, it is a day ban. Anything above or below is breaking the rules.

This part is certainly outdated for TF2 as well, we have SourceComms now which allows us to mute players for specific times as well as people now remain muted even after the round ends or the map changes.

 

I however agree with this still being kind of relevant:

Cheating and Hacking

You can only ban a hacker if evidence (demos, screenshots of malicious activity, etc) is included and substantiated AND two other admins agree with you. If the evidence is substantiated and the two admins agree, it is a PERMANENT ban. Anything above or below is breaking the rules.

Taking a demo is really not hard and makes it easier for everyone.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Thorax_ 539]

Taking a demo is really not hard and makes it easier for everyone.

 

I wish I could agree with that, lol.

I try recording demos once in a while, and it crashes the tf2 app within moments.

 

 

 

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In instances where you suspect the player is hacking...but it is really hard to tell if they are or not; thats when I feel the demos would be of use. If you see them doing like instant 360 headshots on a invisible spy way behind them and they did not see them, then I feel that a demo or replay would not be necessary at all. Basically anything that shows they are obviously using it and are not putting any effort into masking/hiding it.

Edited October 17, 2016 by TheSupremePatriot (see edit history)

[realBelloWaldi 1245]

If you see them doing like instant 360 headshots on a invisible spy way behind them and they did not see them, then I feel that a demo or replay would not be necessary at all.

Anyone can just claim that person X has been 360 headshooting, which is the reason why people are either supposed to take a demo OR get proper witnesses.

Even if the person was obviously hacking, they could claim otherwise in a ban protest and not taking a demo would result in you not being able to prove them wrong.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Forest 309]

Aren't those extremely outdated?

My apologies, I forgot to include a key component in my post that many of you are raising; I don't have any grievances with changes being made to reflect a more efficient and trustworthy agenda. The point that I was eluding to in this thread is that we have these rules set in place, staples in how Staff would go about their job; however, these rules and guidelines have been either neglected or ignored for more favourable ones without actually being updated or touched on at any point. Keep in mind that the Admin Handbook was a universal code; applicable to all Divisions. Up until a while ago, Division Leaders started enacting their own versions of rules and such and this resulted in disharmony and branching of xG (IE. CS:GO vs TF2); pretty well adding fuel to the fire of dividing the community.

 

That is to say, that thread was/is supposed to be the [universal] Staff Member's 'creed', so-to-speak and it's a shame to see that it's fallen so far behind. As previously mentioned, the only reason there were static times depending on the ban was to foster an unbiased judgement system where all players would receive equal punishment for any rules they have/had broken. This isn't something I'm bringing up to dismiss Staff as untrustworthy/unreliable in dishing out fair punishment. Mandating a certain set of rules against rule breakers is fair and just (to a certain extent) and presents no bias in any form. The only exceptions (in terms of ban time) that were made back in the day were for repeat offenders, and at that point it would be up to the discretion of the Staff.

 

Either way, these are just the words of a semi-old fag, and as such it should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't have the authority to enforce any of this, nor do I expect anyone else to do so. Just merely reminding people that we used to have global rules in place for a reason until everything started getting segregated.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Aegean 849]

I completely understand your point of view @Forest and I did agree with you at first, but when I thought about how some rules really need to be considered on a case by case basis to even judge a valid punishment would make a universal guide so hard to write up and decide. The guidelines were made back when we only had CS:S servers (which was jailbreak and surf #neverforget) but although it got updated last in 2014, I think making universal rules for all our servers for all the possible scenarios would be unneccesary. I think just having general rules to base things off of would be enough, and the Admin Handbook could get simplified alongside our general rules in our guides already written. I appreciate your opinion on issues such as this, and any comments that feel like it might contribute to the discussion from anyone (staff or members) please don't hesitate.

[Lithium 302]

I think just having general rules to base things off of would be enough,

Here's the current general rules guide for reference. Could definitely use some updating.

[Egossi 1017]

Here's the current general rules guide for reference. Could definitely use some updating.

I have brought this up several times after getting unbanned from my permanent ban but i suppose it was just ignored by the higher ups of that time (aka when @Aegean wasnt around)

The 15. rule which contradicted my permanent ban in the first place has still not been changed to what people actually have been enforcing (which is perm banning the ban evader)

you should really get on that for instance, if we wanna make clarification about our rules @Aegean @Rhododendron

[virr 808]

I have brought this up several times after getting unbanned from my permanent ban but i suppose it was just ignored by the higher ups of that time (aka when @Aegean wasnt around)

The 15. rule which contradicted my permanent ban in the first place has still not been changed to what people actually have been enforcing (which is perm banning the ban evader)

you should really get on that for instance, if we wanna make clarification about our rules @Aegean @Rhododendron

We follow that rule in csgo, or atleast should. If you get banned for a week and you ban evade your alt account gets banned for a week too.

[Aegean 849]

I'll go through the rules and make changes this week on rules that need to be updated. I'll also talk to the staff about it for anything specific that might be controversial.

[Thorax_ 539]

I have brought this up several times after getting unbanned from my permanent ban but i suppose it was just ignored by the higher ups of that time (aka when @Aegean wasnt around)

The 15. rule which contradicted my permanent ban in the first place has still not been changed to what people actually have been enforcing (which is perm banning the ban evader)

you should really get on that for instance, if we wanna make clarification about our rules @Aegean @Rhododendron

 

 

If you get arrested, and get put in for say 5 years... You “break out” and they get you, your not gonna just be in jail for 5 years after breaking out. Its gonna be a hell of a lot longer.

 

Yes, thats real life and this is a online gaming community, but still evading a punishment shouldn’t just keep the same duration, in my opinion perm is totally fair for evading. You are evading a punishment, just giving the same duration doesn't do any good as they already broke a rule to not evade, thus the punishment should be extended sternly.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[Aegean 849]

If you get arrested, and get put in for say 5 years... You “break out” and they get you, your not gonna just be in jail for 5 years after breaking out. Its gonna be a hell of a lot longer.

 

Yes, thats real life and this is a online gaming community, but still evading a punishment shouldn’t just keep the same duration, in my opinion perm is totally fair for evading. You are evading a punishment, just giving the same duration doesn't do any good as they already broke a rule to not evade, thus the punishment should be extended sternly.

 

Personally I see pros and cons to both, if the originally ban is not a severe enough punishment that deserves a perm, I don't think ban evasion deserves a perm in response to it. Maybe a slightly longer ban but as of now I think just giving him an equal punishment on the alt is punishment enough as perm is a little excessive.