LemonVolt

I made a post about this in the past but I will again, I have been here on and off since 2010 and you can't avoid nepotism in a gaming community that is full of volunteers + kids. I have had problems with it even when I rejoined and defended you @Brian, and you know I will always speak my mind if someone is in the wrong. I won't let *majority rule* make me disregard my own thoughts if I strongly disagree about something, so I don't really think it is that much of an issue if I'm involved. Same goes for @virr who is much more closely involved with TF2 than I am, I trust his decisions to the point where I would never have to second guess him, but he still asks my opinion time to time cuz it doesn't hurt to have a second perspective.
The thing is, if you're friends with a group of people, it's generally going to be an echo chamber of like-minded views, and disagreeing will be out of the norm, so it doesn't surprise me a group of friends will agree with one of their own on a point of view they share, and how would we even moderate it? 

Your point on staff as well, of course if John Doe is friends with Admin or Division leader X while showing interest to moderate, they will more than likely get the position if they fit the bill over someone who is quiet or isn't as noticeable. When you're on the servers, there is only so much you can do to "prove" you can be a good moderator, and a lot of it is your personality and how friendly you are with current staff. This kind of poop happens even in the work force, unless there's some kind of stat they can track (i.e. sales).
I will say though, that anyone who thinks Brian made this post to start a poopstorm and that he doesn't care about xG needs to really think about their implication, because he would not waste time to make a post like that if he didn't care. You should see the threads I made when I left xG, specifically about various staff who were dragging the clan I worked so hard on down to the gutter.

 

I do admit, it was pretty stupid of me to say that, for obvious reasons. But the reason I brought this up was to further prove NitNat's point, even if it brought me out as well, and even if it did come out pretty childish.

That’s something more to pm him about tbh if it’s genuine, posting it on this thread shows you’re going in full defense mode to save your behind

Just saying, the way I got mod was constantly playing on surf, reminding people of rules, helping people in need, and being active on the discord. I do like alot of staff but I wouldn't consider any of them friends atm. Acquaintances?definitely. I havent been perfect staff but i try to make sure that i hold everyone to the standards i hold myself too.

Looking in the bigger picture, don't you think the issue of bias is because of how xG is structured?
Small Clan --> Community-Based --> Relies on friendships* --> Those not in friendship circles take flack
*also it's relatively easy to become staff
It's a blessing and a curse. It means people work on the servers because they have passion, and not just for status or money, but it also means it's harder for the staff to hold themselves accountable.
Just offering a somewhat different perspective.
 

"I know damn well I’m not the only one who feels like it’s just a bunch of friends gathering together to protect anyone in that circle and not caring about anyone outside of their groups input." 
Everything in that thread was organized by three people if we want to talk about friend groups. I don't think Krampus is in the right there, I think I've done my best to express that, and the fact that we're kind of friendly towards each other doesn't change that, but it's extremely hypocritical for certain individuals to suggest that "friend groups" are the cause of someone's opinions on the matter when it's that individual and their friend group that orchestrated the whole gig, even rightfully so. 
 
then there's displays of absolute genius like these
"people are dog-piling their friends this isn't fair" 
 
k 
I don't really care who you are or what your stance on the precious-spray-matter is, all I ask is that people look at themselves for five bloody seconds before they claim that people are deciding issues based on whether an individual is in a friend group or not. 
Self examination and nuance is not a particularly difficult feat. 
The best part about those reactions is that there weren't even any negative ones until the thread was locked, which I was you know, going to point out (but locked thread xddd). If you want to make the case that there's some kind of cronyism or favoritism going on it's probably best to just give your friends a heads up to not instantly react positively to your thread, it makes the idea that you're being oppressed a whole lot more believable. 

Im just gunna leave this topic with this: xG is a very fun and consistent place imo. I try not to get into xG drama or start it. I just want to hang out on surf and make sure people are doing the right thing. If people are unsatisfied then I have no idea what to do about it. Seeing the community I really enjoy bitting its own leg makes me sad.

and that's something I think has improved tremendously due to those groups that cause this having left. Regrettably leaving hasn't stopped them from coming back to track mud everywhere cause they're bored I guess. 

Yeah, I know. People that were once part of the community they loved dearly, and helped establish a great server with wonderful people, cool organization and leaving it in the hands of some great people come back a year later, and find that it's been dumbed down and replaced by people who defend fetish porn sprays then asks themselves "Why does this person hate me" is the worst thing to ever happen to this community. Gain some perspective.
You think I do this for fun? Spend my time looking at my past work, at the community's past work, talking with older members of the clan like some jaded football players, reminiscing about the good old days back when it was a fun? I do it because I give a poop about stuff I've helped the community worked on, and don't like it being ruined by immature kids who think they know everything about the world when they haven't even hit their twenties.
This is the exact behavior I'm talking about. Instead of asking "Where do you think this is going on?" or "Where you do think we need to improve?", you immediately start defending yourself and then complain that all of your problems somehow involve old members. And threatening to leave? If you can't handle criticism, you don't deserve to be here. Get gone and stay gone, or grow a spine and ask what you can do to make this a more enjoyable experience.

No, it was a bullpoop statement assuming everyone disagree with them had to be some friend group plotting against them when this whole ordeal was a bloody group of friends doing exactly that themselves. 
This is also complete bullpoop made up from a viewpoint outside of what actually happens in the community and especially the servers. Hell, all I've ever heard about staff in the past revolve around extreme bias and even people admitting to only giving positions to friends cause of bias. I hold expectations for staff higher then most other people and have seen only one admissions in the entire time I've been here that I can find no reasonable purpose for it existing outside of pure bias. 
Overall though, there's one major thing that I've become dead tired of. Old people who have left the clan, most the time claiming they want nothing to do with it anymore, still lurking around waiting to jump at any hint of drama or to cause it themselves. This has been an issue for far too long where people come back only to comment on how awful they think everything is, say this that and everything in between is a problem, then end up coming around solely to cause those damn problems themselves when they didn't exist until they did so. I seriously think a lot of the worst people around here have left, and the problems those people complain about are ones that they were the worst perpetrators of, especially with the argument of "groups". Until this old groups crawl up and start mucking about again, this isn't something that plagues the community anymore. You have people like bone who actually try to find a resolution to these problems when they get brought up like this, and then you have other people who go around and decide they'll break rules on the server to try and prove their point. 
I'm just going to cut myself short at this point, but when you're coming back just to stir things up and not actually help anything, then the nicest way I can put it is please, go away. That's clearly not going to stop though and there's always going to be people coming back for the sole purpose of being buttholes, which is why i'm going to just leave myself at this point. 

Elcark, you need to relax, you go on about holding staff to a high standard but losing your cool isn't exactly going to prove a good point if you can't keep yourself calm about this all.

look at the voting for this and see who all down votes it
 
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Can we have a serious discussion about the nepotism going on in this clan? It's absolutely absurd.
Take this thread for instance...
It's about an admin using a suggestive furry porn spray. I personally believe that this shouldn't be happening, especially by someone who represents power in the organization. One person, @NitNat offers this suggestion:
He made a simple statement, and within five minutes, he got four replies and the thread was closed by the very same people he's referring to.
It's the community right now. A lot of them don't want to admit it, but the best way to get moderator isn't to show that you're hard-working, constantly on the servers and reminding others of the rules, but instead get real close to the current administration until you've got a spot in their private discord, at which you're pretty much a shoo-in all the way to administrator. Nobody wants to admit it though, because if they did, the facade would crumble, and they would have to take responsibility for their actions. If you looked at XenoGamers in the past, the best way to get staff positions was to be hardworking. Now all you have to do is talk up admins, and if you're a furry, it helps.
I'm really sad to see the dying division head down this path, but there's not much you can do besides look at them and laugh. Take what happened to me for instance. I changed my name to "tired of the tf2 badmins" and had the same group of people defending that it was justified, and not the clear overreaction it was. Was anybody punished for not obeying the handbook? Nope. I got my sentenced reduced to a day, even after the leader told them it was ridiculous.
There's a reason I take breaks for months, and come back for a few weeks at a time. I enjoy playing TF2, but the community here has gone to poop with all the favoritism and staff taking things way to personally. I really hope yall can get on track with this. I'm tired of having to walk on eggshells, but if you can't handle some banter or even some lite playful trolling, then what the fudge are you doing being a mod in the first place. I refuse to acknowledge anyone that gets seriously angry about what a person says about them on the internet, especially if they have some semblance of power. Grow a thicker skin, or step down.
 
 I tried to put this as civilly as possible, and if the thread gets closed, then so be it.
This is pretty much the last post I'll ever make on these forums anyway. Maybe a goodbye thread.

look at the voting for this and see who all down votes it
 
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Frankly this all started because of a group of friends crawling out from under a rock and starting a fire themselves. 
And since people are already devolving into bickering and pointing fingers in such a feeble manner instead of actually trying to contribute to resolving any problems, I am going to close this.
~Closed

look at the voting for this and see who all down votes it
 
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look at the voting for this and see who all down votes it
 
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Okay so I’m putting this blunty because I know damn well I’m not the only one who feels like it’s just a bunch of friends gathering together to protect anyone in that circle and not caring about anyone outside of their groups input. Like there’s even random people crawling out of whatever rock they came from, not being relevant in the problem at all, to help save anyone who’s under fire.

or you know, follow what the creators of the clan told you to do and punish people for using porn as their spray
like any porn

or you know, follow what the creators of the clan told you to do and punish people for using porn as their spray
like any porn

or you know, follow what the creators of the clan told you to do and punish people for using porn as their spray
like any porn

There is no way to find a solution to this without it ultimately being unfavorable for some peoples. 
There's a lot here, so Im going to start with saying even though this was something worth bringing up, this was a very poor way to do so to say the least.  There are much better ways to address dissent about something other then getting a group of people together to prod and "test" someone, purposefully start up an argument creating a scene on the server, bloating it into an issue that occurred by your own actions and could have gone by without creating such uneccissary drama, all in a pseudo witch hunt. The situation could have been handled better by krampus, but I personally think people got off very easy here considering how intentional of a mess this was. Now that this rant is over....
This is (almost) the worst possible solution. Not to say it isn't a solution, but it is effectively just giving up on the issue. Comparing this to csgo is a very poor example because of the stark difference between the two games in regards to it. Custom images (as near as Im aware) effectively don't exist in csgo where as they are actually prominent in tf2,so it's pretty foolish to assume they would be treated the same across both games when they don't exist across both in anywhere near the same capacity. If we disable sprays, then with how this whole situation is treated by extension we can't allow objectors or other items with custom images as well.
All in all custom images are a notable part of the game itself and just disallowing that part in it's entirety creates a lot of alienation to it as well as a very unwelcoming outlook. We have two extreme options looking at it in this manner, either disallow all images and risk looking unfriendly, incredibly strict, and uptight as a community, or allow any kind of images, which I hope I don't have to explain why that would go south.
Before being able to come to an alternative to either of these though we have to just accept that there is no plausible way to find a solution to something so frivolous without there being some level of entirely personal opinion, vagueness, or however you want to word it as to where the line can be drawn.
There is no statement that covers everything because of how incredibly vast the subject matter is. The only way to do that would be to list every possible thing that would not be allowed, a list that would grow ever larger and make the jailbreak rules list look like a footnote as well as be so insanely strict it would be infinitely more suitable just to disallow custom images (which again is incredibly unfavorable in itself due to how prominent they are not just in the game, but on our servers). Trying to implement something a more "universal" ruling to cover everything unallowed such as pornographic, questionable, or pg-13 only will (and have proven to) make the attempts of loopholing and opinionated rulings far worse due to being incredibly vague in overall coverage. 
Now I honestly don't understand why one little word, explicit, has caused so much issue for understanding for so many people. Since it has though, ill try to lay it out as simply as possible here. Explicit-obvious-your mind immediately recognizes it as what it is upon looking at it. This is designed to still uphold the general idea of what should be allowed, but also give some amount of leniency due to again the significant variety of images that pop up because there is a substantial amount of people (namely from surf, but far from limited to) who prefer this lenicancy over strictness.
People do very often forget though that the rules don't just state explicit genitalia. Nudity is also included to cover these very borderline situations that should not be allowed even though they "don't show genitals so 100% ok fam" and by that reasoning, all of these images shown are in fact explicitly nude and therefore against the rules. This is something I myself have felt strongly towards but haven't strongly enforced due to the general level of leniency that people seem to have desired for some time now. I do want to push this fully at this point though because had it been then this situation would not have happened at all, at least not in the way it was conducted. 
No matter how we try to word what is and isn't allowed though, there will ALWAYS be people trying to loophole and edge what is allowed. That's not something that is exclusive to this rule. That being said, from my own experience the only time that we end up back in this situation (which doesn't happen anywhere near as often as some people are trying to state it does), its due to someone purposefully trying to make this be a problem, just like happened now. This is such a non-issue 99% of the time otherwise that it is painful people insist on doing so in such an overdramatic way it becomes far more of an issue then it should.
As I see it, we have two options here. Except that we are a bunch of nitpicky children that shouldn't be allowed to turn the safe search on google off and thus disallow all custom images, or grow up and realize that a gray area is absolutely necessary for something driven solely by opinion like this to be able to have the best middleground for everyone. If we can accept to go with the latter, then I would push for fully enforcing the concept of explicit nudity properly finally and attempt to get this to be a better understanding among staff. In regards to that, there is one very important thing I need to state.
We are people too. We are not perfect, and because of that there will always be at least some variance between us. There will always be situations where "one staff said this but another said this" but it is incredibly important to bring these up when they happen instad of just using them as reason to complain about in consistency. We NEED to know when this is happening so we as staff can come to better understanding of how to treat things amongst each other so we can better serve everyone else.
 

Admins In-Game Name: [xG:A] Krampus
Admins STEAM-ID: STEAM_0:1:88632487
Your In-Game Name: YeEternalTuna
Your STEAM-ID: STEAM_0:1:56604228
What server did this happen in?: TF2 Surf
What exactly did the abuser do?: Showed bias towards sprays
Did it affect other players?: Yes
Explain the entire situation here:
So around 10 on June 8th, I was playing on surf like normal and there were some sprays that got my attention that were somehow allowed to be sprayed, even though it broke the  spray rule.
With this in mind I thought ''why not test something out'' and decided to find a picture of my own in order to test the bias of this whole spray thing. (with editing help from @NitNat ).

First picture is mine and the other is one that was allowed by plenty of staff. As you can see the areola is quite large and visable while my image has the barbie doll censoring. My image was allowed by Frostyboigrim but denied by Krampus and I had thought it was really odd that they allowed butts to be shown and stuff like the spider oc pic but not my image so this is where my second experiment comes in with the help of @LemonVolt which involved a image found and edited by him.

Again, going by the way Krampus worded his previous warning, butts were allowed so no problem right? Matt sprayed the shown picture and was immediately told to remove it. Krampus had stated that it wasn't allowed because ''its obvious that its a pornographic picture and you can tell whats under the sticker''. Matt had argued with that quoting krampus on how butts were allowed and was kicked for ''trolling''. He had explained it showed the entire body as well and too much of the butt. So my two brain cells sparked and I had remembered something from a few days ago that Precious slutboi had sprayed which means it HAD to be allowed right?

This image was obtained from my tf2 files (where you find all the sprayed images within your tf2 game) and I had Lemonvolt spray it down to get Krampus's thoughts on it (I'm pretty sure you already know the outcome of this) and something quite odd happened...
Now how is it that our spray (the image with the lemon censoring which I will refer as experiment #2) isn't allowed but the one of Kass is? It makes absolute no sense what so ever because its virtually the same exact thing but one is depicting a anthropomorphic bird man and the other is of a human female. It just screams hypocrisy and bias and as you can see when confronted he runs out of the little common sense he had left in him. Apparently ours is ''clearly taken from a pornographic image'' and just ''censored with a sticker'' even tho just by looking at the Kass picture you can TELL its cropped. The blind biased pass for the (kass) spray gets a pass when it’s clearly cropped nsfw. The (lemon censored) spray is set up exactly the same besides the fact that it’s a real person instead of a furry.
Also Aegean has given me permission to put it in TF2 Discussion due to there being an error in the report abuse thread application.

It's done

hey this is a thread to post mods, not sure if its legal
 
but oh well
minigun_empty.wav
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