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Alright since many people are dumb and don't know the difference between a threat and an insult. Someone saying "kill urself" isn't a threat, it's massive disrespect. I swear if i see one more person say "HURRR DEATH THREAT" i'm gonna blow a blood vessel. Out right perming people for this act is ludacris and should be delt with as massive disrespect and shouldn't be a 1 warning thing. death threat (dɛθ θrɛt) Definitions noun a threat to kill someone ⇒ A police guard was placed on her house after she received death threats. threat THret/ noun noun: threat; plural noun: threats 1. a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done. "members of her family have received death threats" synonyms: threatening remark, warning, ultimatum "Maggie ignored his threats" LAW a menace of bodily harm, such as may restrain a person's freedom of action. [*]2. a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger. "hurricane damage poses a major threat to many coastal communities" the possibility of trouble, danger, or ruin. "the company faces the threat of bankruptcy" synonyms: danger, peril, hazard, menace, risk More I'm of course talking to @Diamonde @Flareon @Ohstopyou @Scootaloo. The fact that this rule is "being discussed" is obvious that something so simple is not being discussed. 9/10 saying such horrible things is because of someone being upset and i'm not saying jrulez8 deserves an unban, he broke multiple rules. and @Matsi at one point we DID have admin disrespect as rule but was changed to be a global disrespect rule. If you wish to take a stronger action against such disrespect make it a 3 day ban or something BUT after following protocol (verbal/text warning, mute/kick, ban). and if he comes back then increase to a week and then a perm. To out right perm people for saying this is ludacris and eventually will start throwing perms around like candy. for example. this person was permed with the reason "death threat" mentioned before it's more than likely not a death threat. and this person hasn't been banned before so why the perm? (i'm not blaming any mods or admins for following the so called 'rule'). Even with THREATS we gave each individual multiple chances especially with more serious suicide threats by individuals i won't name unless told to. and before you say "but there is no difference" yes, there is a massive difference between kill urself and i'm going to murder you. Kill urself is just edgy teenagers who found the internet and think being le epic maymay troler makes their e-penis hard, while actual threats are of obvious anger issues. Also @ChickenPanda Death threats against ANYONE is equally concerning. Staff aren't higher than others. An immediate perm is ludicrous and isn't fair, regardless of how the player acts. jrulez was indeed right in the situation however again i'm not saying you guys should unban him because his reaction in the thread alone confirms he's a total edge-lord. also @Diamonde next time please provide a screen shot of the chat logs and do NOT copy and paste, copying and pasting makes your evidence invalid. Someone didn't point this out to you so i'm trying to help you out for future reference. If half of this sounds retarded and or doesn't make sense or i'm repeating myself, it's because i'm tired and only saw the thread and wanted to make something before i forgot. good luck admining.

My opinion: Telling people to kill themselves is disrespcet. It should be treated the same way: Warn => Gag => Kick => Ban and so on. Telling people that you are actually going to kill them in real life or suicide threats should be nerfed, but still taken seriously. Those should cause only one warning and if he goes on an immediate, not permanent, ban afterwards. Examples: Death threat: Person 1: I will kill you if you don't give me a hug. Person 2: Okay okay... Death threat much... Suicide threat: Person 1: I will kill myself if you don't give me a hug. Person 2: Okay okay... Death suicide threat much...

Not to butt in or anything, it isn't in my place and honestly I only read 3/4 of what was said here (most of it seems to be the same stuff, just reworded) but I feel like y'all are going to crack under all of this. Keep in mind that this is all just personal opinion, so feel free to disregard it if you so choose to. I'm not here to start a debate or argument. I'm not sure what it is with the TF2 Division (not pulling favoritism in Divisions or whatever, so please do not treat it that way) but it seems like the most ludicrous rules seem to float around here. Examples like banning the "lenny face" or just generally trying to put a punishment on trolling that has been sub-categorized to the point of "offenses" blending and meshing together into a mass of "I have no freaking idea on how long I should ban this guy, or even if I should ban this guy." I get that there is this desire to keep the Server(s) clean and inviting to new players, but putting restrictions on things that are incredibly difficult to determine (which is apparent from this thread alone) puts a lot of stress on both Staff and Higher-Ups. The problem that I see here, is that you guys are determining for the players what is/isn't serious. Simply put, you're all so focused on keeping things clean, that you're assuming that everyone is offended to one set thing, in this particular case, "death threats". I understand that "cyber-bullying" has become this new huge intimidating thing that should be prevented, but at the same time you're only offended to what you find offensive. At this point, I'm rambling but I want to stress that not everyone treats a certain message the same way, especially when it is relayed through text on a free to play game. It goes without saying that there are cases in which straight up disrespect just makes the environment toxic (IE. Someone who is excessively cursing at anyone/everyone for no reason at all other than to just cause a shit-storm) and those should be dealt with; but putting bans on cases that some people may find offensive seems like something that will just open up a can of worms. There is a reason we have sections labelled "Ban Request" or "Member Protest". Instead of deciding who is/isn't being offended and teaching people that their problems can be solved by just having others do their work for them; let those who are offended say that they are offended. And that goes hand-in-hand with respecting their opinion(s) as well. This requires you to use your better judgement, rather than blindly banning people left right and centre for saying something that may have had absolutely no effect on whomever it was directed at. Lets be honest, there's no way you can tell if someone is offended by what another person says, unless they say they were, and even then it's difficult to tell if they're telling the truth. But again, use common sense. People cry wolf all the time as well. TL;DR - I suggest not [permanently] banning people based on something that is completely up to personal opinion. What bothers some people, may not bother others at all.

I freak out every time a bunch of people in JB say "kill yourself" to the last red with LR after he gives it, expecting someone to ban them for death threats xD

Let me go ahead and give an officiated statement regarding this matter so that we can move on and clarify how it's to be handled henceforth. There is a difference between someone making a genuine death threat and someone telling someone else to "Kill themselves." I don't think that there is any hard-to-see discrepancies between the two and they can be differentiated, and they are simple enough to see are completely different things altogether. But, for moderation purposes, these have been lumped into one category for simplicity. So, with this being a taboo point, (And I do mean that, not to be directed at @Vector because he made the thread, but because I hear it a LOT on the servers), I want to clarify exactly where we stand on this particular issue. Death threats are a serious issue, but so are threats of suicide and implied wishes of suicide from other players. To keep things simple, we have in the past lumped all of these three different offences together in the "Death Threat" category. Is Player A telling Player B to kill themselves TECHNICALLY a Death Threat? No it isn't, but that's the category of offense we would have classified it as because they are all lumped together. @Rhododendron has made it VERY clear to the DMs that these types of threats, insults, and conversations about self-harm are NOT to be tolerated any further in the future, hence why we have cracked down so hard recently on the offending parties who choose to use this kind of language to our patrons. Sure, the majority of them are just angsty teenagers trying to sound tough, but that's the kind of attitude we are aiming to eradicate in our servers. We have had multiple problems with this kind of issue in the past, and the LAST thing we want is some sort of liability because we actively allow such language in our servers. If someone tells a kid that they should kill themselves, and they ACTUALLY go through with it, it'd be horrendous. I don't think that would ever actually happen, but it is a possibility, and it is something we are aiming to mitigate. So, I will discuss this at length with the other DMs (@Ohstopyou, @Moosty, @Rejects, @kbraszzz ) and we will deliberate on whether or not this needs to be changed. In this DMs honest opinion, I have no issues continuing to lump these types of offenses together in a "Death Threat" category, as they all fit snugly as it is, but if it is the wishes of the other DMs to relabel it, we shall do so. At the very least, we can clarify the rule about "Death Threats" to include telling others to commit suicide, as to levitate any confusion.

Not leaving. Stepping down. I've seen immense amounts of immaturity in the division lately and it's driving me nuts. I hate having to go on the servers and I hate having to respond to the call admin bot. (Something that our MODERATORS do not do.) I may just quit TF2 in general, which I'm definitely doing when Overwatch comes out. @Ohstopyou not directed towards you, just speaking in general. I know I'm a part of it a lot, but I'm tired of the autism in this goddamn clan. @kbraszzz @metalslug53 @Rejects @Moosty http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mSn4-szhus

So Xerses' member candidacy currently stands at 8 positive vouches. Two more to go ... :)

How can you seriously justify a perm for a onetime instance of a player who doesn't have a history being a nuescense. Because someone is upset and angry because of something happening on the server and user the term "kill urself" is obviously an upset player however you SHOULD still follow the guidelines and not outright perm them. Cracking down on people saying this DOES NOT mean perming them. It means harsher punishments and discipline. Change it to a 3 day ban if the player in question continues after the alleged ban. The immediate perming isn't fair and regardless of how you feel about the player is irrelevant because we want to come off as a fair, fun server, not a server full of nazis. I'm not saying these shouldn't be taken seriously because they should but to call it something that it is not only adds confusion. And yes there is a major difference between death threats/suicide threats, and telling people to kill themselves, they aren't on the same level, but as mentioned before REGARDLESS we gave each individual who got permed MULTIPLE yes MULTIPLE chances to improve and we even gave one who to this day isn't ban. If you guys outright permed him, you would have lost another moderator. We all have bad days and make bad decisions. To outright perm people isn't fair. And no @Moosty, posting the definion is just an enhancement on what i mean, something like this should be labled as what matsi said, Cyber Bullying because the two are completely different situation and if someone sees our bans and we have hundreds of people banned for "death threats" then it's going to make our server seem a hostile, and unsafe environment. Also Mentioned before, it should be renamed to either cyber bullying, serious trolling, or ridiculous ammount of disrespect. Silence made it clear he doesn't want this shit to go down but i don't think he ment for it to be an out right perm. He gave multiple chances to multiple people for the offense. Also if someone told another player to kill themselves and the other player did infact kill themselves, then there would need to be some thought about the individual who killed himself, it's hard to believe that the player who killed himself wouldn't have a history of depressive talks on the server and or had a discussion about suicide or such which would mean that you would have to perm him before the original action took place.

@metalslug53 Why not just call it cyber bullying :P @Vector The rule has NEVER been "admin disrespect" in the ~5 years I've been around this clan.... people just enforce it when it's against a staff member more and call it admin disrespect or mod disrespect, which is the problem that I think needs to be fixed... especially when most of those same staff members say similar things to OTHER PEOPLE. I like that xG has been taking a stand against comments like these more recently, they should.... it's something that should not be tolerated and it's something that if ignored could have grave consequences for the clan in the event someone actually does kill themselves and an investigation leads to xG.

For the difference it could be easily said as one is encouraging suicide, and the other is a threat to make someone fear their own life from bodily harm from another person.Either way in my opinion both deserve a permanent, or long term ban. There really should be no discussion about it.

Yessir. I agree with you 100%. I just mentioned the "death threat" was against a staff member AND a regular on our servers. I would like to elaborate on this, however. I'd like to see how we handle this.

It seems like this shitfest is handled mostly... though I would like to comment on a few things that I think need to be handled better... First... why are you handing out 1 week bans for disrespect to people with no previous ban history..... @Flareon Those should be 6 hr bans at the most, increasing if they are repeat offenders.... Second... It would be nice if staff would not punish people and call it "admin disrespect" as being an admin does not make you more special than a normal player.... there is no such rule as "admin disrespect" or "disrespecting staff" the rule is "disrespect" it applies to anyone and everyone.... please don't only enforce it when the disrespect is towards a staff member.... enforce it when anyone is disrespecting anyone, and enforce it the same way all the time. calling a staff member a nazi is no different than calling the warden a nazi when he's being super strict.... seriously, put some thought into what you're considering disrespect and at the same time, think of what you say to other people and try to work on your faults... try not to do something tomorrow that you punished someone else for today.... (this is not directed at anyone, but at everyone in general)

Not a death threat. Telling someone to do it themselves and a threat are two different things. but of course, server biased again. What he said on mic was WAY worse, and everyone who was on agrees. But I digress. No point in arguing with you guys.

I really don't give a fuck lmao, you can ban me. Just know you're losing someone who's played on the server for 2 years or so just because of the fact that you have shit admins. Pretty evident too, when the server talks shit about them and compares them to Nazis when none are on.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Also when mods ban them because someone does not like how they are doing there job, i have seen some guy say that the mods are really bad and don't know how to do there job and one will ask me how long to ban him for? How about you stop being pussies and actually hear the guy out in a pm or something instead of banning because he thinks you suck at being a mod. That means we all should be banned because ALL of us think at least one person is a bad mod/admin. Also, i think @diabeetus said that those threats should be a gag, kick, then week ban and if he keeps it up, then a perm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83OILqFV1gw