rejected Volkufspim ☭ - Team Fortress 2

[Chrono 372]

I'm just gonna add that if most of the United states which is where xg is located considers lolicon to be child pornography then why shouldn't we consider it that too since it is almost the same thing and deserves the same punishment.

" section 504 subsection 1466A of the PROTECT act of 2003 clarifies that “drawing” or “cartoon” visual representations of child sexual abuse must depict a minor involved in sexual activity, be obscene, and lack “serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value” in order to violate the law. Beside the fact that the US Supreme Court has already determined this section of the PROTECT act to be unconstitutional, imported Japanese lolicon art would still have to be legally proven “obscene” and lacking in “literary, artistic” value in order to be deemed illegal."

 

"In November 2011, Joseph Audette, a 30-year-old computer network administrator from Surry, Maine, was arrested after his username was linked to child pornography sites. A search inside Audette's home did result in photographic child pornography in addition to "anime child pornography".[86] Much unlike previous cases (and likely due to the results of the Handley ruling), the charges for the cartoons specifically were quickly dismissed under Maine law and dropped under federal law"

 

notice how the charges pertaining to "anime child pornography" are dropped in both of the most recent cases involving it, both on the states, and on the federal level in the US.

 

Federally, loli is not child porn, and any case that is in states that gets put through on it will go to higher courts to prove themselves not guilty of child porn.

[Vexx 112]

Admin Handbook | Xeno Gamers This old thing?

 

Also, continuing off of what Chrono said, regardless of what constitutes "child pornography", if it depicts any sort of graphic content (nudity, gore, anything not PG13) then it should not be permitted. With that said, Staff should not be making "exceptions" to this rule in regards to ban time based on their own personal beliefs/opinions.Simply put, if it isn't PG13, tell them to change it. End of story.

 

As for the ban time, I agree 100% with Chrono; the user should not have been outright banned for 1 month, especially provided that the user does not have any bans prior.

 

Literally all I want to clear up in this thread, y'all can discuss the hacking aspects of it, but by no means should anyone be issuing extended ban times based on their own beliefs/opinions.

The user was banned for a month because of combined actions. Me, @virr, @Bello, and @Sesh had agreed that he should be banned for a month because of his conduct. He not only sprayed porn, he was constantly talking about sexual conduct with children, and his name history even shows it. I was the one who pushed for him to be banned for a month. That being said, I don't think extending his ban to a perm is really necessary, he should get another chance to clean up his act.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Tatost 604]

The alt account has 23 hours in tf2, no years of service badge, and is only friends with volk.

 

There isn't a video clip of him saying something in voice chat, but it could not be anymore obvious.

You're going on a possible outcome. There isn't any solid evidence on this actually being his alternate account, there really isn't any way to prove that this account is his. Banning him for hacking under an alt isn't an option unless we can get solid proof that it was him. By all means ban the hacking account, though.

[Kypari 579]

So when I go to google and search "what is lolicon" this comes up

Being as you can literally report people for this over the internet and police can get involved I think it's much worse than a normal spray, especially considering in the past we banned Xerses for child porn.

 

Here is the definition of Lolicon:

Here is the definition of Child Porn:

So basically Lolicon is anime child porn. They are exactly the same except for how Lolicon is animated instead of real life. Does this make it any better? Not really. I personally think that's worthy of a perm being as Xerses was kicked out of the clan and permed for posting child porn and we shouldn't let someone off for practically doing the same thing.

 

The hacking is irrelevant as there is no sufficient proof of them hacking. Yes it's incredibly suspicious that they are the only person who is friends with a hacker but that's about all we've got.

[realBelloWaldi 1245]

So when I go to google and search "what is lolicon" this comes up

uh oh, same!

I personally think that's worthy of a perm being as Xerses was kicked out of the clan and permed for posting child porn and we shouldn't let someone off for practically doing the same thing.

If I may say, the whole Xerses ban was bullshit. He posted a link to a thread where someone later on allegedly posted CP, which is surely disgusting but not his fault.

I personally don't think CP and drawn little anime girls are the same, but I'm not lawyer.

When choosing a punishment for the offender, I think it's fair to say that we did not follow any type of protocol, but rather some moral compass if you know what I mean. Any sane human would find the offender's conduct outrages and digusting, hence we jumped straight to a month ban. However, I do think he should get one final chance, as he has never been banned before.

Porn sprays are not something that is perm banned for, and not even banned for 1 month, they are banned for a day if that and asked to change/not use on the server (increasing amount the more times after as long as they were given a warning and told about it first)

I do agree with this to a certain extent, but I don't think following a certain protocol is necessary when the alleged person speaks about having sex with children. If the TF2 higher ups all agree that a harsher punishment is appropriate and even get a CM's approval, then I think it's fine.

That being said, I would love to hear @mrnutty12's input as well.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Thorax_ 539]

uh oh, same!

[ATTACH=full]30613[/ATTACH]

 

If I may say, the whole Xerses ban was bullshit. He posted a link to a thread where someone later on allegedly posted CP, which is surely disgusting but not his fault.

I personally don't think CP and drawn little anime girls are the same, but I'm not lawyer.

When choosing a punishment for the offender, I think it's fair to say that we did not follow any type of protocol, but rather some moral compass if you know what I mean. Any sane human would find the offender's conduct outrages and digusting, hence we jumped straight to a month ban. However, I do think he should get one final chance, as he has never been banned before.

 

I do agree with this to a certain extent, but I don't think following a certain protocol is necessary when the alleged person speaks about having sex with children. If the TF2 higher ups all agree that a harsher punishment is appropriate and even get a CM's approval, then I think it's fine.

That being said, I would love to hear @mrnutty12's input as well.

 

 

I get neither of those messages when searching that on Google.

 

I personally disagree that it is an equivalent to CP as it is not a real human and just a drawing, although it still is a drawing of a younger person, it is still disturbing... therefore I only feel that the user should be punished in the way that anyone else would be that sprays pornographic material in general. With that being said, I am going to -1 as this user was punished improperly, and should have ban either removed or reduced to the appropriate first tier of punishment.

[Chrono 372]

So when I go to google and search "what is lolicon" this comes up

[attach=full]30601[/attach]

Being as you can literally report people for this over the internet and police can get involved I think it's much worse than a normal spray, especially considering in the past we banned Xerses for child porn.

 

Here is the definition of Lolicon:

[attach=full]30604[/attach]

Here is the definition of Child Porn:

[attach=full]30607[/attach]

So basically Lolicon is anime child porn. They are exactly the same except for how Lolicon is animated instead of real life. Does this make it any better? Not really. I personally think that's worthy of a perm being as Xerses was kicked out of the clan and permed for posting child porn and we shouldn't let someone off for practically doing the same thing.

 

The hacking is irrelevant as there is no sufficient proof of them hacking. Yes it's incredibly suspicious that they are the only person who is friends with a hacker but that's about all we've got.

https://i.gyazo.com/0e3a210b9e3b8549a9e83c7fb30b9390.png

 

I didn't get that, with adblock off.

 

If you want to argue that lolicon is child pornography, then you should do some of the research that I did, and you could see that on the federal level every case was thrown out pertaining to lolicon being child porn. (there are some cases that are kept, but that was because of legitimate child porn. the charges of child porn based on the lolicon images were thrown out.) and every state case with lolicon that did not include legitimate child pornography was either thrown out there and then, or was appealed to a higher court and then thrown out.

[TBOHB 74]

Hey remember when we were going to not make this a shitstorm? Me too.

[Kypari 579]

https://i.gyazo.com/0e3a210b9e3b8549a9e83c7fb30b9390.png

 

I didn't get that, with adblock off.

 

If you want to argue that lolicon is child pornography, then you should do some of the research that I did, and you could see that on the federal level every case was thrown out pertaining to lolicon being child porn. (there are some cases that are kept, but that was because of legitimate child porn. the charges of child porn based on the lolicon images were thrown out.) and every state case with lolicon that did not include legitimate child pornography was either thrown out there and then, or was appealed to a higher court and then thrown out.

It must be because I'm .uk or something.

I stand by thinking that it's child porn but it might be different in the UK. I understand that's it's not 100% child porn per se but I still think it is because it's the exact same concept but anime instead, which is why I still think they should have a very long ban, especially combined with the trolling and toxic attitude on the server.

[Kypari 579]

Hey remember when we were going to not make this a shitstorm? Me too.

It's not? This is actually a pretty calm debate

[mrnutty12 184]

I do agree with this to a certain extent, but I don't think following a certain protocol is necessary when the alleged person speaks about having sex with children. If the TF2 higher ups all agree that a harsher punishment is appropriate and even get a CM's approval, then I think it's fine.

That being said, I would love to hear @mrnutty12's input as well.

Well first off, lolicon is disgusting and deplorable. However we have a process for other kinds of sprays that we don't allow on the servers so on that account we should not just ignore that because a certain type of spray is more objectionable than others. The thread regarding the process for sprays was already posted and while old it does still apply afaik. So on the account of a permanent ban based on cp sprays I would say no, but given the very suspicious nature of the hacking account and the testimony of staff about his behavior I would be in favor of keeping his ban at one month.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Thorax_ 539]

I’m not vouching on part of the hacking unless I can see it for myself, especially since we seem to be basing this off of suspicion rather than actual proof.

[Forest 309]

Cheesus crust, there is a reason that our 'Spray' rule is so inexplicably vague; to prevent controversial or otherwise biased bans from taking place such as this.

 

I'll re-iterate once more: if the spray is not PG13 in any shape or form, then abide by the rules and deal out the appropriate warning/kick/ban. Honestly, it doesn't matter if it's a child's cartoon depicting a sexual act, a dude banging an animal, a minor performing a sexual act in the form of a cartoon, who cares; if it's anything that should not be seen by anyone under the age of 13, then warn them to change it, kick them, ban them for a day, ban them for a week, ban them for a month, and then ban them permanently [for repeated offense].

 

Don't start dragging morals and ethics into the mix when we honestly [shouldn't or] don't give a flying f*ck what the Player's interests are [in regards to a spray]. As long as they abide by our rules on the Server then they can do whatever the hell they want. This means not enforcing or sanctioning your own beliefs and opinions on a Player, and worse, acting on it by dishing out an extended ban time.

 

You cannot, and should not, use your position of power to emphasize your stance on a certain topic of debate, however controversial it may be. This is the reason why we do not condone nor allow political debate, religious debate, or anything in between on the Servers. If someone starts talking about it, warn them not to, gag/mute them if needed, kick, ban, whatever. By no means should Staff be jumping the gun based on how "serious" the topic is and dealing an extended ban time.

 

If this really was justified as per the Higher-Ups, then I honestly do not condone this whatsoever and am worried of the direction we are currently taking towards the enforcement of rules. I won't say it's wrong as it is entirely up to their discretion, but I also do not agree with it in any shape or form.

[Bone 364]

Cheesus crust, there is a reason that our 'Spray' rule is so inexplicably vague; to prevent controversial or otherwise biased bans from taking place such as this.

 

I'll re-iterate once more: if the spray is not PG13 in any shape or form, then abide by the rules and deal out the appropriate warning/kick/ban. Honestly, it doesn't matter if it's a child's cartoon depicting a sexual act, a dude banging an animal, a minor performing a sexual act in the form of a cartoon, who cares; if it's anything that should not be seen by anyone under the age of 13, then warn them to change it, kick them, ban them for a day, ban them for a week, ban them for a month, and then ban them permanently [for repeated offense].

 

Don't start dragging morals and ethics into the mix when we honestly [shouldn't or] don't give a flying f*ck what the Player's interests are [in regards to a spray]. As long as they abide by our rules on the Server then they can do whatever the hell they want. This means not enforcing or sanctioning your own beliefs and opinions on a Player, and worse, acting on it by dishing out an extended ban time.

 

You cannot, and should not, use your position of power to emphasize your stance on a certain topic of debate, however controversial it may be. This is the reason why we do not condone nor allow political debate, religious debate, or anything in between on the Servers. If someone starts talking about it, warn them not to, gag/mute them if needed, kick, ban, whatever. By no means should Staff be jumping the gun based on how "serious" the topic is and dealing an extended ban time.

 

If this really was justified as per the Higher-Ups, then I honestly do not condone this whatsoever and am worried of the direction we are currently taking towards the enforcement of rules. I won't say it's wrong as it is entirely up to their discretion, but I also do not agree with it in any shape or form.

 

100 times this. Just because a spray isn't "your cup of tea" doesn't give you grounds to punish them on it. For example: If I were to have a spray of a skeleton, most people would see it and probably just think "Haha, doot doot, my dude". However, there are people out there who could find it disgusting/disturbing because of their beliefs, and I hope if someone were to report me for having a skeleton spray you guys wouldn't respond with "Oh, well I guess since it offended someone we have to perma ban him". Even if the spray followed the rules.

 

Now, I don't know what the contents of the spray were, but if it were actually breaking our current spray rules then yeah, punish the person according to procedure, not jumping straight to perma bans.

Otherwise don't perma ban someone for having a spray of Brussels sprouts "because they're icky".

[Chrono 372]

I think it's safe to assume @Forest myself and several others think that this ban request should be a closed case seeing as the only real thing going for a perma ban as requested was "hacking on an alt" but there is no undeniable proof that it is the same person (just a fishy account, however I have had friends that have used hacks before and they don't even add their account they only add some close friends.)

 

 

As for the other matter (The Loli spray) I personally believe regardless of the "discussed amongst higher ups before banning" that it is quite frankly BS, we have long standing statutes of ban lengths for this particular reason. It's very clear here that several staff members have their own personal belief on this matter, and that is why there was a blanket time that is meant to be used. It even says that if you ban above or below the posted time for it, that it is admin abuse. The user in question could very well post an abuse thread and you literally cannot deny it is abuse since that is a decree from rhodo himself. regardless of having "higher up discussion"