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In all honesty and it’s already been mentioned by bone and most likely thought of my many members as well, the idea of just removing sprays in general is a pretty good idea in the end. Servers are still able to be highly successful even without the option. If you don’t think the cs:go example is enough to back that claim up, there are still Glubabble servers. (Mainly ff2 and slender) The whole banter of revising the same spray rules is always going to be pushed to the edge and loopholed by someone.

I was the one who asked NFO support about the potential ToS violations, they just replied saying "it's not something we could fairly control" or something along those lines, basically saying it's fine if it's in game. Would only be a ToS violation if a website ran through NFO had pornography hosted.

It's like you didn't read past the second sentence I wrote before you quoted me and used it in a response. Objectors and decals are already treated the same way as sprays, and we've had a problem before with Objectors and players (including staff members) using pornographic Objectors so... hey, you might be on to something there! By this definition then cropped porn sprays shouldn't be allowed whatsoever, because you can definitely tell there's more going on off screen, even if there's no nudity shown. Which is what's happened every time we've "clarified" this rule. It's gonna keep happening. So be ready to come here and type all this again in 6 months when we have to clarify it again. But you know what's really unwelcoming and off putting? Joining a server and seeing spawn covered in cropped porn sprays while a staff member is telling a player that their spray isn't allowed, but this one over is because because it's juuuust zoomed in enough to not see anything. This is the biggest problem though. The majority of players who have rule breaking or borderline rule breaking sprays are the staff members themselves, it starts with them. Staff members need to be the first to change their sprays and lead by example. Imagine a newcomer or regular seeing a staff member with a rule breaking spray, they're gonna think "Oh, this is ok, because they know the rules pretty well". Until that happens, rewording a rule isn't going to do anything as long as staff refuses to follow it themselves.

There is no way to find a solution to this without it ultimately being unfavorable for some peoples. There's a lot here, so Im going to start with saying even though this was something worth bringing up, this was a very poor way to do so to say the least. There are much better ways to address dissent about something other then getting a group of people together to prod and "test" someone, purposefully start up an argument creating a scene on the server, bloating it into an issue that occurred by your own actions and could have gone by without creating such uneccissary drama, all in a pseudo witch hunt. The situation could have been handled better by krampus, but I personally think people got off very easy here considering how intentional of a mess this was. Now that this rant is over.... This is (almost) the worst possible solution. Not to say it isn't a solution, but it is effectively just giving up on the issue. Comparing this to csgo is a very poor example because of the stark difference between the two games in regards to it. Custom images (as near as Im aware) effectively don't exist in csgo where as they are actually prominent in tf2,so it's pretty foolish to assume they would be treated the same across both games when they don't exist across both in anywhere near the same capacity. If we disable sprays, then with how this whole situation is treated by extension we can't allow objectors or other items with custom images as well. All in all custom images are a notable part of the game itself and just disallowing that part in it's entirety creates a lot of alienation to it as well as a very unwelcoming outlook. We have two extreme options looking at it in this manner, either disallow all images and risk looking unfriendly, incredibly strict, and uptight as a community, or allow any kind of images, which I hope I don't have to explain why that would go south. Before being able to come to an alternative to either of these though we have to just accept that there is no plausible way to find a solution to something so frivolous without there being some level of entirely personal opinion, vagueness, or however you want to word it as to where the line can be drawn. There is no statement that covers everything because of how incredibly vast the subject matter is. The only way to do that would be to list every possible thing that would not be allowed, a list that would grow ever larger and make the jailbreak rules list look like a footnote as well as be so insanely strict it would be infinitely more suitable just to disallow custom images (which again is incredibly unfavorable in itself due to how prominent they are not just in the game, but on our servers). Trying to implement something a more "universal" ruling to cover everything unallowed such as pornographic, questionable, or pg-13 only will (and have proven to) make the attempts of loopholing and opinionated rulings far worse due to being incredibly vague in overall coverage. Now I honestly don't understand why one little word, explicit, has caused so much issue for understanding for so many people. Since it has though, ill try to lay it out as simply as possible here. Explicit-obvious-your mind immediately recognizes it as what it is upon looking at it. This is designed to still uphold the general idea of what should be allowed, but also give some amount of leniency due to again the significant variety of images that pop up because there is a substantial amount of people (namely from surf, but far from limited to) who prefer this lenicancy over strictness. People do very often forget though that the rules don't just state explicit genitalia. Nudity is also included to cover these very borderline situations that should not be allowed even though they "don't show genitals so 100% ok fam" and by that reasoning, all of these images shown are in fact explicitly nude and therefore against the rules. This is something I myself have felt strongly towards but haven't strongly enforced due to the general level of leniency that people seem to have desired for some time now. I do want to push this fully at this point though because had it been then this situation would not have happened at all, at least not in the way it was conducted. No matter how we try to word what is and isn't allowed though, there will ALWAYS be people trying to loophole and edge what is allowed. That's not something that is exclusive to this rule. That being said, from my own experience the only time that we end up back in this situation (which doesn't happen anywhere near as often as some people are trying to state it does), its due to someone purposefully trying to make this be a problem, just like happened now. This is such a non-issue 99% of the time otherwise that it is painful people insist on doing so in such an overdramatic way it becomes far more of an issue then it should. As I see it, we have two options here. Except that we are a bunch of nitpicky children that shouldn't be allowed to turn the safe search on google off and thus disallow all custom images, or grow up and realize that a gray area is absolutely necessary for something driven solely by opinion like this to be able to have the best middleground for everyone. If we can accept to go with the latter, then I would push for fully enforcing the concept of explicit nudity properly finally and attempt to get this to be a better understanding among staff. In regards to that, there is one very important thing I need to state. We are people too. We are not perfect, and because of that there will always be at least some variance between us. There will always be situations where "one staff said this but another said this" but it is incredibly important to bring these up when they happen instad of just using them as reason to complain about in consistency. We NEED to know when this is happening so we as staff can come to better understanding of how to treat things amongst each other so we can better serve everyone else.

You ever come back to xG you are guaranteed to get back in. I think you'd easily go in the book of xG legends. Sad to see you go, but you do what's best for you

I don't agree with this at all in fact.. people are throwing out the word like its nothing just as a blanket to cover almost anything and everything that happened. There's a difference between staff discretion and bias. Bias is making a decision in favor or against a certain person really no matter the conditions.. so let's say I was playing with one of my best friends and he had a porn spray, and I allowed it even though its CLEARLY against the rules, that would be bias. Discretion on the other hand would be somebody bringing a certain spray that they are unsure to a staff members attention, and that staff decides whether or not it should be allowed or not, in HOPEFULLY an unbiased manner. And I know you can say that it may have been one of their friends who sprayed it, and that's true, and that's where bias would come in if that rose to the case. We don't allow porn sprays anyways, and we punish accordingly if someone is found to have one. It's moreso a matter of how a spray is cropped that causes a discrepancy between people like has been stated. The rule says no explicit nudity, meaning if a spray was cropped in such a way that may be suggestive but didn't actually show anything, it would be fine.. but that's where the problem is, people can GUESS what is cropped out, and that's the only argument anybody can have when they don't actually know for sure what it is, and think that it shouldn't be allowed because they "know" what is cropped. If there are as many staff members or anybody in general that have inappropriate sprays, why wasn't it brought up before now? I'm not saying there aren't problems with peoples sprays because there definitely are, but again why wasn't it brought to anybody's attention before now? Or at least I myself haven't heard anything of it, so I could be wrong. But I feel like a picture is being painted here that is way bigger than it needs to be. I think an easy solution would be to ask some players and staff members what THEY think of when you say something like an inappropriate spray, so we can get an idea of what other people think and then *somewhat* base the new rule on how people actually think of it, or at least that's my two cents.

Totally understand, I've been fortunate that the people I met in xG that I became friends with in the early years have stayed around me so it hasn't been an issue of new people coming in and old people going out. Thank you for all the help you've given xG as a whole throughout your stay. Despite you wanting to leave, you'll always have a spot in xG even if you don't want to be an actual member. Best of luck with wherever you go, and I hope you stay in touch.

when I read this, I see the word "bias"

This is incorrect and i would provide some proof but im in a bit of a rush right now. I can edit this post once i get back home if you'd like. We are NOT responsible for what people spray on our servers, it doesnt affect our status with NFO at all. Also, lets change the tone a little bit, shall we? No need to be aggressive.

The very second sentence I state address exactly your second one. You're saying sprays aren't a problem on csgo because they don't even exist on csgo. Well tough luck using that here because they do in tf2. I honestly don't know where you got lost in what I had to say for that. Why are you even bothering to mention this (unless your sole purpose is to just try and claim staff use porn objectors, which i'll get into shortly)? Of course they're already treated the same because it all falls under the same category, and if we're not going to allow sprays because it's "too hard to agree on the rule" then it should be a no brainier the same would have to apply for anything else otherwise we'd just have the exact same disagreements about them. By first glance, hardly. You can infer what may be there as well, but you can absolutely not say that you know for a fact solely on what is displayed before you when it's not actually there to be viewed. Something along the lines an outlined penis is something you can look at and know there's a penis there. Something where it's the upper half a male with the lower half cropped out, you can not say that you KNOW that there is a visible penis included because, quite simply, it's not there and you're just making a personal inference at that point. Just like how having to clarify this "all the time" is over exaggerated, so is that example. I'm sorry, but you're not on the servers often, and because of that you don't see how they commonly are. As someone who is, that example and what has happened here is a VERY rare occurrence. What will be off putting and will be an everyday occurrence guaranteed will be people coming on the server, going to use their spray, and discovering it's disabled entirely, and that's because there is an extreme abundance of people who use sprays of all shapes and sizes. Only a fraction use them like you are claiming are everywhere. Saying the majority of people with borderline sprays are staff members are, forgive me for being so blunt, bullpoop. I won't claim I know every single staff members sprays but I will claim i'm fairly certain I know them better then you and personally have only ever encountered three individuals with sprays of this kind with this example today being one of those three and by far the worst. I fully agree staff are the ones who need to lead by example and should refrain from sprays like this one, but the reason it has been allowed to slide in this manner isn't due to staff being biased and wanting to flaunt around porn sprays, it's because the general opinion on servers has been in acceptance of this. This is something we clearly want to change at this point and I already stated need to get staff on the same page for it, but saying staff are refusing to follow rules is just being daft to how things are on the servers.

I honestly have to wonder how many times the rules need to be clarified or revised before people can be held accountable for what they do.

So while this definitely brings up a good discussion on spray regulation, I do no think Krampus is in the wrong at all. Poorly censored porn is not the same as cut off porn. You took two shots with direct nudity and covered it. The other spray has it cut out. On the topic of bias, everyone has a bias but I do not think in this case it is affecting anything. Krampus is a damn good admin and frankly does not deserve this -1

So I'm leaving xG. I bet a lot of you are thinking "Oh boy, here comes some juicy drama", well then prepare for disappointment. For about a year now, I've felt weird. I felt like something was off whenever I joined and played (what little I could) and I just couldn't pin down what it was. Today, it suddenly came to me, it's not 2013/2014 anymore. The community just doesn't feel like it did when I first started playing, or even when I came back in 2015. A lot of people would argue that xG used to be better. Some would say xG is better now than it's ever been. I just say it's different. It's not any better, it's not any worse, just different. Players and Staff have essentially rotated and have been replaced with newer people, and along with the rotation so has the general attitude on the servers. While that's not a bad thing, it's just not what I grew accustomed to. For a while now, I've attempted to keep what little of the xG I knew intact, by trying to keep rules the same, revert things to how they were, but realized that I'm the only one who wants it that way. Everyone says they remember when xG was at it's peak, but they'll all give you a different answer on when that was. For me it was when I first started playing, back when there was a specific group of us who would play on VSH. Problem is, the majority of those people are gone now, and due to that I've been becoming increasingly bitter towards the community because "it's not old xG, not how I remember it". But it wasn't really so much xG changing as it was me refusing to go along with it and clinging to how it was nearly 5 years ago with a completely different group of people. The biggest issue for me though was when @Bello stepped down from DL. Someone who was Staff for as long as I could remember, and someone I considered one of the best Higher-ups we'd ever had in the TF2 Division. For some reason I felt like because of that the community would start going to hell with all these strange new Staff members wanting to come in and ruin the community. This almost made me feel contempt for the community, simply because they wanted to change a few things or acted differently. I couldn't even read half of the discussions on Discord without feeling like I was gonna have an aneurysm. Again, this was essentially me fabricating problems and overreacting to small amounts of drama I'd see unfold, becoming unnecessarily disappointed with our new Higher-up roster for really no reason. It wasn't until earlier today when I reacted to a post in a way I don't feel I normally would. It doesn't really help the fact that I was also wrong. After re-reading a lot of what I wrote, I realized I was reacting in a way I didn't like, based on the fact I didn't like the Higher-up because we had small issues before and because he's new to his position. So I came to the conclusion that I should simply remove myself from the community before I cause any real issues or divisions. I really don't want to leave, since I consider xG to be a bit of a home for myself, as dysfunctional as it may be sometimes, but I can't really have a home I feel borderline disdain for. I'd like to apologize to @Elcark for essentially telling him that he's not fit for his position while simultaneously being horribly incorrect myself. I'd also like to thank @virr and @Aegean for just being helpful in general and pulling the TF2 Division out of some tight spots sometimes. For anyone else who may have viewed me as a friend during my time in the community, thank you. I don't know if I'll ever return to xG, but if I do, I'd hope you guys would welcome me without pitchforks and torches. Seeya.

Division Team Fortress 2 In-Game Name ˣᵍ|QueenOfHearts® Identity https://steamcommunity.co Position Moderator Time Active on Servers 200 hours Information I have been apart of xG for 7 years now. I applied for mod a few times in the past, Once for CSS when I was waaaay too young and once for TF2. I have been playing on the servers a lot more and xG feels way different, more friendly, and like a family. I would love to be able to moderate the servers as I think I could be a great addition to the tea, I tend to play later than other mods and try to be mature and friendly. I would love the opportunity and thanks to xG for giving me such a wonderful few years!

Maybe instead of excusing those higher up, we shouldn't have moderators with such suggestive sprays in the first place, much less an admin. I'd have a hard time taking someone seriously if I broke one of the rules, then five minutes later they go ahead and spray that.

Well that's not always the case. In this situation, you could definitely see it as that, but I myself don't think it's entirely the case personally. You can have random people come on with questionable sprays and they get away with it depending on the staff member

That's cool, my dude. I'm open to correction if needed. Also, I didn't think I was being any more aggressive than him, but alrighty ? Edit: Also I've seen posts before in which Rhodo has even said NSFW material isn't allowed on the servers due to ToS, but I may have misunderstood

I don't think it was any ill intent from Krampus, but I definitely think that either both sprays should follow the same guideline as the only difference is just one is cartoon and the other isn't. It's still lewd + censored (even though the first image isn't a great censor lol) +1 for rule clarification -1 for any punishment on kramp

Might I just say, that Kass spray wasn't cropped like you believe, at least not much. I only cut a tiny bit off the bottom so I could remove an iFunny watermark and make the spray work for the spray format. What you see there is basically the full spray, no exposed donut hole or genitalia. However, I myself was confused by Krampus's decision to condemn your previous sprays and not mine. I was told by other staff that as long as a spray does not show exposed genitalia or exposed breasts, or properly censors those things, then it was allowed. That's why when Krampus told me no explicit nudity was allowed, I changed my spray immediately. While there probably was some bias and confusion in this situation, I think there's a bigger problem at large here. What really counts as an 'explicit spray'? Like I said, when I first became staff, I was told that as long as a suggestive spray was properly cropped and censored, it was allowed, but I've also been told by others, not just Krampus, that explicit nudity of any kind is not allowed, which is why I changed my spray. Frosty says your sprays were okay, and I didn't really have a problem with them (though your first spray is definitely pushing it), but Krampus said they weren't okay. I don't think bias is the only problem here, I think there needs to be more clarification on what kind of nudity can be allowed. If someone takes a pornographic image that normally would not be allowed and properly censors it, is it still against the rules or not? I don't think this is something we can just leave up to staff discretion anymore, because that's how confusion like this happens.

Happy happy ?

Was my birthday yesterday so it was my first time going clubbing, took a picture just before I left ?

Admins In-Game Name: [xG:A] Krampus Admins STEAM-ID: STEAM_0:1:88632487 Your In-Game Name: YeEternalTuna Your STEAM-ID: STEAM_0:1:56604228 What server did this happen in?: TF2 Surf What exactly did the abuser do?: Showed bias towards sprays Did it affect other players?: Yes Explain the entire situation here: So around 10 on June 8th, I was playing on surf like normal and there were some sprays that got my attention that were somehow allowed to be sprayed, even though it broke the spray rule. With this in mind I thought ''why not test something out'' and decided to find a picture of my own in order to test the bias of this whole spray thing. (with editing help from @NitNat ). First picture is mine and the other is one that was allowed by plenty of staff. As you can see the areola is quite large and visable while my image has the barbie doll censoring. My image was allowed by Frostyboigrim but denied by Krampus and I had thought it was really odd that they allowed butts to be shown and stuff like the spider oc pic but not my image so this is where my second experiment comes in with the help of @LemonVolt which involved a image found and edited by him. Again, going by the way Krampus worded his previous warning, butts were allowed so no problem right? Matt sprayed the shown picture and was immediately told to remove it. Krampus had stated that it wasn't allowed because ''its obvious that its a pornographic picture and you can tell whats under the sticker''. Matt had argued with that quoting krampus on how butts were allowed and was kicked for ''trolling''. He had explained it showed the entire body as well and too much of the butt. So my two brain cells sparked and I had remembered something from a few days ago that Precious slutboi had sprayed which means it HAD to be allowed right? This image was obtained from my tf2 files (where you find all the sprayed images within your tf2 game) and I had Lemonvolt spray it down to get Krampus's thoughts on it (I'm pretty sure you already know the outcome of this) and something quite odd happened... Now how is it that our spray (the image with the lemon censoring which I will refer as experiment #2) isn't allowed but the one of Kass is? It makes absolute no sense what so ever because its virtually the same exact thing but one is depicting a anthropomorphic bird man and the other is of a human female. It just screams hypocrisy and bias and as you can see when confronted he runs out of the little common sense he had left in him. Apparently ours is ''clearly taken from a pornographic image'' and just ''censored with a sticker'' even tho just by looking at the Kass picture you can TELL its cropped. The blind biased pass for the (kass) spray gets a pass when it’s clearly cropped nsfw. The (lemon censored) spray is set up exactly the same besides the fact that it’s a real person instead of a furry. Also Aegean has given me permission to put it in TF2 Discussion due to there being an error in the report abuse thread application.

In-Game Name Santa Division Team Fortress 2 Previous Member Yes Identity STEAM_1:1:65776806 Previously Banned Yes Time Active on Servers 40 days+ Reason for Joining Because I want to

Me and my gf At pride yesterday!

or you know, follow what the creators of the clan told you to do and punish people for using porn as their spray like any porn

Ah, so I'm just a moron like usual, good to know.

Because I'm not very active should be even more proof then. If it's not "common" why is it taking place on the servers the few times I'm actually able to be on? Throwing out my opinion because I can't be active is pretty awful too, btw. I think you guys are under the assumption I'm here to kill everyone's fun and take away everyone's furry porn sprays, but that's not the case. Allow me to educate you on something you should already know as DL. See, the entire reason we have our spray rules isn't because the xG founding fathers signed a constitution that said: "Rule 1: no anime tiddies". It's because we have to follow our server provider's ToS, much like how we have to follow Discord's ToS on our Discord server, lest it get incinerated. Which is why we recently nuked our NSFW channel, because people kept posting things against ToS. Our server host states that we are not allowed to: Publish, transmit, distribute or store content, material, information or data that contains content that is "illegal (including child pornography), obscene, defamatory, libelous, threatening, harassing, abusive or hateful or that advocates violence or threatens the health of others" So in order to follow the ToS, you have 2 options. 1. Disable sprays so that players don't download data from other clients (or disable client uploads) that contain that content, or 2. Form a set of rules that must be followed so people don't use their spray and transmit material that's possibly ToS breaking to other players. To be completely honest, if we're going to "clarify" the rules, we might as well use the phrasing that's in our ToS, since that's the entire reason we have the rule to begin with. Just with a few adjustments: "Sprays, avatars, and customizable items cannot contain content that is illegal (including child pornography, drawn or otherwise), obscene (including pornographic or implied sexual content), threatening, harassing, or hateful" Sure, it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but it's about as long as our current rule. Plus it covers all the bases with the word "obscene" which can mean "pornographic", "lewd", "indecent", or "offensive". Which covers porn (cropped or otherwise), hate symbols, gore, slurs, etc. Rather than "explicit" which can mean "graphic" or "uncensored", pretty much saying porn's ok as long as it's blurred, which is where we are now. It's either that or we disable sprays entirely.

To be honest, I think it mostly comes down to staff discretion and opinion here. We are all different in our own ways, such as Elcark being far stricter than myself in terms of sprays. I don't entirely think it's down to bias, but it may be a factor of course. I don't think a demotion is necessary at all here considering how this mostly bides to staff discretion. Demoting staff isn't always the answer. Pretty much what Elcark said about how it's appears very unwelcoming and a lot of people like to show each others sprays and have fun with it. I know I personally like using my spray a lot, and I know a lot of others who do too, so I don't entirely think this is the most optimal solution. The same goes to allowing all sprays since this could firstly violate against other rules, such as racism or whatnot, though that is a lesser issue comparative to people spraying things such as disgusting fetishes, ultimately leading people away from the server. We are not disabling weapons because people can customize them. If there's a single worst way of handling this situation, in my opinion that would be it. A lot of people use the objector and use completely harmless decals on it, so why should we punish them for the minority of people with suggestive decals on them? Yeah, I really don't like the wording being "explicit" nudity at all. I know I was one of the people who had opposing opinions on how explicit is meant to be interpreted, so me and Elcark have butt heads quite a few times on what should be allowed and what shouldn't. A re-wording of this should sort this problem in my opinion. I am definitely for revisiting the spray rule and just adding or removing some words instead of making a huge list of what's good and what isn't good since over-clarification can be a mouthful and not many people would want to read it, so I'll bring it up in discussion.

Lol the only thread I still get email notifications on. Back to being a ghost now.

I don't think Krampus has any bias or ill will towards you. He's jut trying to do his best to moderate/regulate things the best he can and in all types of positions like this there might be misjudgments or make mistakes. I think there should be more clarification and specifics on the rules of what can be included in a spray rather than the sort of cookie cutter rule presented generally on places like the forums and server itself. I think getting real specific will help resolve any confusions people may have regarding sprays as it won't leave people guessing what's acceptable or not. I also think that all staff should be informed of the rule so everyone is consistent in saying what is and what isn't acceptable. Though sprays might be a hard thing to regulate as there will always be a spray that will be in the middle ground and left for staff to make a tough decision. I personally believe that sprays that don't include gentiles by being edited out or covered should be allowed, including the two sprays you made. I'm sorry to hear that you've been having trouble with this and I hope it's resolved fairly soon. I'm sure this discussion will help implement something new.

I was gonna make this huge long post about sprays and bias and whatnot when an idea came to me... Here's my suggestion, and I'm prepared to get negatively rated into oblivion for this, but why don't we just disable sprays server wide? It's been proven, time and time again that players and staff feel completely differently about sprays and their subject matter. Even to a point where I have seen players (some of which are even staff now or were staff) argue with staff members that their spray is allowed since it follows the rules but the staff member personally doesn't believe so (even while another staff member allows it). This has even caused some players to purposefully alter their sprays so they're not "technically" against the rules, but still pushing the lines (again, this has been done by current and past staff members). The CS:GO Division doesn't have this issue. You know why? Because CS:GO doesn't have sprays (at least not to the degree of TF2's system). So either we come to a global agreement and clarify rules even more so, which has been tried many times and we still have this issue, or we just disable the spray ability and save TF2 staff another headache they don't need.

+1 he smells like poop A: 10 M: 8

+1 might as well already be a member. also very drunken idiot A:0^9 M:0^8

I'm ready for the second revolutionary war

In-Game Name a$$ not censored with dollar signs the forum blocks swearing Division Team Fortress 2 Previous Member No Identity STEAM_0:1:213971687 Previously Banned No Time Active on Servers 16hrs Reason for Joining The reason I would like to be a member is because I kind of bought uber donator and I feel like being a member would just be nice and would make me get closer with the community as a whole. -butt ?