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Again, I would enjoy some form of proof beyond stuff that I was already punished for.

While mince is just grasping at things to make a flaming pile of shit, this is the 2nd time in very recent where TF2 staff has banned someone/wanted to ban someone for a long duration of time over something so small and so little that it boggles my mind. Call me old but back in the day, this kind of name was common. It's literally a way of protesting that you don't like how staff are handling things. Does he ever specifically state "Kypari is a badmin because he sucks the poopy"? no, he just says "tired of the badmins". I literally don't even know where to start with this besides you all need to just chill out with your bans. There's no need to be a nazi over every single thing and hunt for reasons to give longer bans than remotely reasonable.

I will stand by my brother till the end

He should have at least been kicked first. If I recall correctly, his last ban was for abusing calladmin - the argument that he "hasn't changed after two years" doesn't make any sense since an "instigating" name and calladmin abuse isn't the same. I feel like a month is way too much, lol.

Closing the thread now, as there no longer needs to be discussion. The month ban was insanely excessive, especially with no kick and also with a ban on brian without getting his side. His ban will stay to a day, will be discussed with the higherups but right now Silence and I both agree anything more than a day is excessive over something so small. We are not a clan based on censorship, and hopefully people's feelings can handle being called badmin. PLEASE use common sense when making bans, and try to give adequate warnings before bans unless it's hacking or mass freekilling (which we have other rules for) Ratings should not be considered personal attacks, as I was told in the past by the higher ups when I complained about it. That being said, if you're giving people FUCK OFF rating, you should not be complaining about it in the first place. We are NOT a safe space I will have huge discussions with our higher ups and then staff about what common sense means, and how we should try to be fair in all our bans, and try to understand that we should not strive for bans, but instead do our due diligence to get things resolved in a matter that everyone is happy. This is clearly a situation that has not met those standards. This fault also comes from myself for not being so involved with TF2, but I will be from now on.

At the end of the day, he didn't really do anything serious enough to get banned. He didn't target anyone specific and it wasn't a personal attack against anyone (no idea about the context of the whole situation but still). Honestly the ban should just be removed and we move on from this since I don't like the idea of people banning others simply for poking fun at xG. It makes us look like a community that wants to censor people which we shouldn't ever become.

@Kypari does sourcebans being disabled also prevent being able to be kicked? I'm asking that as a legitimate question. Also, I would like to hear the feedback from @Bello, @Vexx, @Sesh and @mrnutty12. You guys believe this warrants a month ban despite his last ban being over 2 years ago over something unrelated? I personally find a 1 month ban over his name insanely excessive, especially after his previous ban being so long ago. Tagging @virr as well since I appreciate his input.

I do appreciate the fact that you have logs showing that you did in fact warn him to change his name, however the fact he didn't respond to you at all means he might not have seen it so try to keep that in mind in the future. Regardless, his name was to trigger the staff which is why I do believe he should have got punished in some sort if people did get offended which apparently they did. The issue I have was he had a name that upset staff, so you decided a month ban was the right decision? He got a week ban 2 years ago about call admin, and the previous day ban before that was something he got pardoned for. If you're going to go off his history, please try to use some discretion and understand that although we have a system for how we ban, I feel like it should be common sense that someone who didn't get punished for years shouldn't automatically get a more severe punishment their next offense, regardless of when it occurred or the level of offense. Context matters a lot for staff, and I would prefer you guys think about issues critically before blindly following a guide that is meant to give you a foundation when trying to uphold the rules instead of it being the golden guide that should be followed to a T.

@Vexx from the tf2 admin handbook that you wanted me to edit.

If you're going to bring up a persons ban history, then the content of the bans do matter. The *procedure* does not matter when almost all of the bans are bogus (hell, there are plenty of cases where your *procedure* is not even applicable). Feel free to try and figure it which of the bans are legitimate. Based off of your post and others, no one has actually investigated. It is very easy to sweep things under the rug when you don't particularly like a person, unfortunately that won't work.

How does being toxic without having been banned for it justify a month ban? Yes, he was banned for something else and maybe he was toxic, but jumping straight to a month ban seems way too much.

You did zero research and went based off of other people said, then used that information in your post. There's no telling how correct your information is on Brian. Rejects was cut a lot of slacks for blatantly lying and abusing his powers. I'm not going to hang on this too long to minimize the issues this thread is already causing people, but, the fact he was allowed to stay in this clan is definitely slack. This was probably a mixture of a lot of people liking him and slack for his work on the servers. Now, banning someone for the name "admins are badmins" is not fair. That's just shows certain staff members have thin skins. Staff should never have to use their powers for insults against them unless they are getting flat out personal attacks or are disrupting the server.

So you are gonna tag your friends who are gonna agree with you?

So you guys chose to never ban him those times that he's so toxic that you feel that's all he joins the servers for, but the time his name is "tired of tf2 badmins" was the tipping point for a month long ban? You've gotta be kidding me man.

lol wut

Let's get this straight... The solution here for a ban appeal on someone with a very minimal ban history, and a rich history of being a great staff member is to week ban him for a name on a server. Not only that, his name wasn't even offensive, it was just Admins are Badmins. Are staff that fragile that a name criticizing you is warrant of a week ban? Ridiculous. The fact this needs a ban is childish, the fact @Vexx or @Kypari didn't investigate anything is ridiculous.

That's fine with me, I'm fine with a ban to a day as he never got a kick warning. A month is excessive. I will also add a few more things here before this thread is closed.

@Vexx So did you even look at the ban reasons? Spoiler you didnt, you are a moron.

@Kypari So did you even look at the ban reasons? Spoiler you didn't, you are a moron.

I'm gonna have to genuinely agree with this, like i stated in the private discord that some people reading this are on, i find it extremely unreasonable to not peruse warning a person when you know they may have not heard/seen it, it's essentially being banhappy and is poor staff behavior. Once there was a random guy who got on jailbreak and was mad about how worse he thought the jailbreak community had generally gotten. So he got on blue and mass freekilled, I warned him and everything then he asked me if i was an admin which i was at the time, and he was clearly waiting to be banned, but instead i started talking to him to ask why he was mad and he explained and i explained to him where he was right and where he was wrong. After the conversation ended he made a geniune apology and said i could ban him since he wasnt planning to join again. And that i think is how staff should try to handle situations rather than going "LOL he fucked up this time /ban @person 0 "toxicity, disrespect" cause otherwise you're being more counter-productive to the server generally than you are being productive. just for the simple fact that the communication in general with brian was poorly established, i will +1 this thread for either the duration of the ban being reduced to a reasonable amount, or it being removed entirely TL;DR - The situation was poorly handled, the length of the ban is unreasonably long

Isn't that when you should've kicked instead of banning..? Not everyone in the game reads chat, I do agree a month ban was excessive, I think you jumped the gun here when you saw what happened years ago. +1 for shortening ban a little bit.

With minimap mods, you would have to explore the area to get it on your map unless the map detail would be downloaded into the mod. This would make finding towns and woodland mansions literally the easiest thing ever if it was just given to you.

Face it: a bunch of people probably already go on the server with this neat plugin. We should like totally add it. :coffee: ServerMinimap Something like but not exclusive to this plugin.

Because Aegean wrote that and it reminded me of you and I forgot to quote him

While I did not research the original ban as I should have, I did talk with a lot of my staff about how brian has been in the server, and have even witnessed some of it myself. Rejects was cut no slack, he was demoted all the way to member, though there was talk about just dropping to probationary mod for a bit there, in the end it was a full demotion so that no bias was shown. Once again, just because he was staff previously does not mean he should be "cut come slack". Brian has never personally insulted me, nor do I dislike the guy. Fairness is what I'm going for here, and sure I already admitted I did make a mistake by not investigating properly before hand. A two week silence was proposed in terms of a punishment, due to his behavior.

I ain't getting involved. All i'm going to say is that Brian yes had a history of doing this. I have nothing against brian and i am friends with him but i won't deny that he has done this for a little while but even then i personally didn't have a problem with it because it wasn't so bad to the point i punished, however that is MY opinion. not sure why i'm being mentioned and why this is brought up but cool bro thanks.

I think we all get that point, but the member of question himself probably didn't even know you were telling him anything. Banning someone for not reading chat on a server that the chat always goes fast is immature in my opinion, you didn't try anything else except saying it in chat over and over again. Sure he can get banned for harassing people, but the main reason of the ban and what you've been arguing against was his name.. if it was that much of a problem isn't there a /rename command or was that removed? Idk its been a while. If he was harassing other people constantly, MAKE SURE he knows people are telling him to stop, if he knew and he continued, then ban him for a day/week or something, but a month because his name was bugging you? Sounds pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Like has been said before, warn (make sure they understand the warning, or even saw it) ->kick(With reason included in message)->And THEN ban(With final conclusion on the matter). I always let the procedure stand for the day I first warned someone, if they did it again in the same day, then I would take a different course of action, then the next time however long after that I wouldn't be so lenient.. But two years later and you are still holding him to the fact that he was banned THAT LONG AGO? Seems a bit off to me, like you have some hard feelings against him that you let effect the ban even though staff are SUPPOSED to be unbiased, the way I take that is a staff member is not supposed to give someone more time on a ban just because you don't like someone. And that's what I'm getting from all of this, but ay.

Oof. I could be a sassy Sally and quote a bunch of posts to reply to individual people, or bring up how I would have handled it. But I honestly don't have the time nor would that help, so I'll just say +1 for shortening or ban removal. Mistakes were clearly made and/or protocol was clearly goofed somewhere. Either way it seems like the people involved should just admit mistakes/apologize, and maybe we should take a closer look at some sort of "statute of limitations" for punishments that have been served in full/are years old.

He was on yesterday for 6 hours with Egossi and other members on TGH, are you telling me he went through the server only to insult people? Also, this whole thread is based on your conversation to brian asking him to name change, which he didn't, to which you asked Vexx for a month ban after. So what you're saying is also false since no one apparently had an issue with him that entire day, but according to you, all he does is come on just to insult people. @Vexx

Why didn't you investigate the bans? You seem to be acting very irrational right now. This ban is by far one of the most ridiculous threads I have seen in years.

To which I reply that there has been no prior history besides some actions I was already punished for. A week ban for not seeing a message is still too excessive, especially when the only evidence submitted was outdated evidence including stuff I was punished for, and a name change punishment that I didn't recognize at the time.

+1, too long of a ban. I agree with Aegean, so I don't think is much for me to say.

I was not kicked yesterday. I will state again that I was muted, and I left after questioning the decision.

I warned him twice just to check if he was paying attention. He clearly wasn't so I just banned him. If someone hasn't changed in the last few years then the punishment system clearly needs to continue. They haven't reformed as a person so myself and the TF2 higheurps believe that the system should continue, regardless of how long ago the bans were.

I mean I'm surprised you didn't see this coming. You've been in a lot of trouble pretty recently with multiple staff members with toxicity. I'll do bullet points to follow up corresponding to your bullet points. Each staff is different in how they manage things. Some staff members are more lenient and some are far stricter. There's not much you can do about it really since it mainly comes down to upbringing and personality. [MEDIA=imgur]a/XxtVJ[/MEDIA] [MEDIA=imgur]a/XxtVJ[/MEDIA] You should have been paying attention to the chat as well. Unfortunately there's not many ways that staff members can warn you outside of chat so that you can see it easier. It was around 1am BST when I warned you so I can't tell you on mic, though chat is deemed enough by the higherups. The length of the ban is as long as it is because of your ban history and your history of toxicity. Xeno Gamers Most recent ban before the month was a week. You have been punished a lot recently, including warnings and kicks as informed by @Elcark Usually the procedure goes warn ->kick -> day ban -> week ban -> month ban -> perm. As you had already gone past the week ban stage, it's a month. I promise I try to be as unbiased as possible. Obviously I'm not perfect and no-one is, but in this situation I tried to be as unbiased as possible including asking other staff in a private discord if it was OK to ban you just in case. There was communication as included in the screenshots. [MEDIA=imgur]a/XxtVJ[/MEDIA] There was also a discussion with @Natsu and @Elcark at the time in the admin chat. As stated previously, word is that you've been in a lot of trouble with passive aggressive comments, warnings and kicks with multiple staff members. That's why I requested that to be the reason as well as the name. Chatlogs provided by @Vexx : Of course having an opinion isn't the problem here. If someone has criticism I will try to hear them out and see if there's any way I can improve if I agree that I'm lacking in a certain area. However, your comments are clearly to instigate with staff. Hopefully this ban has been cleared up to you.

@Kypari Can you please explain your side of the story, including why you asked for a month ban from Vexx aside from there being no warning, kick or shorter ban issued prior to this month ban.

Here is the finished version.

Don't take this the wrong way, but the same could be said regarding those who don't agree with the rules and regulations that we have set in place. I understand that this whole thing can (and most likely is) be frustrating, but to engage in a discussion as monumental as this while retaining a closed-minded perspective is only going to exacerbate your own attitude or behaviour on the topic at hand. In other words, if you want to have a civil discussion, then I would not recommend going down the "but it's a stupid rule anyways" route or to start letting it affect you on a personal level, which seems to be happening based on your responses. Mind you, I'm not saying that you aren't capable of having this sort of discussion so much as I am saying that in order for your own opinion to have any sort of credibility or sway, you need to be able to receive feedback/criticism in a constructive way. With that said, you need to realize that the enforcement of rules and regulations based on a Staff Member's preference is something that is incredibly difficult to manage. On paper, it is a completely viable way of cutting down on bias; but in practice it is an incredibly difficult thing to do. In all fairness, we only have one or two Division Managers who manage the Staff of their respective Division. There is absolutely no way they can monitor every single Staff Member during every hour of the day. This is why we rely so heavily on our Players for feedback. If you can provide names and ample evidence to support claims that the Staff in question is/are working outside of our own rules, then our Higher-Ups can address the problem areas directly. Our Players are our eyes and ears on the Servers when our Higher-Ups cannot be. As previously mentioned in your other thread, this is why we have 'Member Protest' and 'Report Abuse' sections of our forums: to address problem areas with Members or Staff. For the record, I agree 100% that there is definitely a large amount of bias in terms of what Staff say, do, or even enforce in terms of rules. I've seen my fair share of contradictory actions, but it is what it is and there is only so much our Higher-Ups can do.

Have a job? What do you do? What do you like about it? How long have you worked? Would you recommend working there to anyone in xG? At the moment I am in the process of applying to work with Amazon Fulfillment. Details not available yet obviously xD

The most recent ban was two years ago. Based off of this thread, the tf2 higherups have showed zero scrutiny whilst dealing with this case. Vexx agrees with me, and your posts verify my statement. You don't get where I am "coming from" if you believe an offence from two years ago should be carried over for somebody making their name "admins are badmins."

Also if you made yourself DL of the Runescape division I'm gonna have a right fit. I'll apply for that and bust my ass 11pm-3am everynight just to hold that title.

I honestly think banning him for having a name like that is a bit excessive. Sometimes people would rather be playing the game than be reading the chat so maybe he didn't see the warnings and had to be given a warning on the voice chat. Even if his ban was from 2 years ago I believe he doesn't deserve a month ban over a name. And about the situation where he was asking you guys to mute the kid, I'm just going to guess that he thought the ''immature voice on mic is not allowed'' rule was still a thing and was asking for the kid to be muted for that. If that were the case then you guys should have informed him that it was no longer a rule and that it was removed.

We care because xG is a community in which we respect one another! Just because you're apparently immune to being hurt on a personal level doesn't mean others are! Until you understand the background and stories of each and every individual, you have no right to make that statement. Just because you don't care if people hurt each other on xG, doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't. No, it's not! If someone's going out of their way to verbally attack someone for no reason, THEY are the ones causing the problem! I can sympathize with SOME of what you say, but please be careful in the future about making extremely generalized statements on how you think things should be on xG, without even justifying yourself.

As staff members, it's our duty to stop people from disrespecting other people and make sure everyone has a good time to as far as a degree as possible. People getting offended would make them want to leave the servers. If you don't agree with it that's fine. I disagree with some rules myself, such as the old teleport-spawncamping rule. You just have to work with it though sadly.

I honestly cannot see the angle you're aiming for here, are we talking about slurs or are we talking about staff incompetency? Slurs are never going to be allowed so I would never count on that. As for inconsistency with how staff handle situations, that is something that can't really be fixed either. As humans we are all different, no two people are going to handle their position the same way. While one staff member may be a total "Hitler" admin, the other might be incredibly laid back and not really do much of anything. We cannot change how people think, and us having the rules the way they currently are helps us keep a non-toxic environment. Also, Stop quoting this. This was something said by a comedy based YouTuber, and has no real substance in an actual argument against not allowing slurs. What you are pushing for here does not really seem feasible, nor does it seem like a very right thing to do. I've played on servers where there is basically "no rules, say what you want" and honestly those were some of the worst I've visited. The last thing I want xG filled with is 15 year old's thinking that 9/11 jokes are funny and spouting racism at every user that decides to even turn the camera in their direction. There's a reason why things are the way they are, there's really no point in changing what has already worked for so long.

Yeah this needed to be said. There was a few conflicts that ive seen that seemed unlike I have seen on here before. I too would also like to thank all of the staff members and higher-ups. I know I have been here for a little over a year and some since the beginning, but we as a community wouldn't be here today and as big as we are today if you guys didn't show up or didn't volunteer to help keep the servers clean. I don't think I would be here if the community was as toxic as the last one I was apart of. i feel welcome here and thats saying a lot after the countless times Ive tried other clans. Would also like to thank all the members we have gotten within these past 6 months. Thank you for stopping in and saying hi. You guys help make the clan what it is today.